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Racism in the Bible

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posted on Apr, 27 2015 @ 11:58 AM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: uncommitted

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: borntowatch

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

The Jews are doing ok for themselves, no thanks to the Christians who have been persecuting them for 1500 years now. It's thanks to the Christians being intolerant of Jews and not letting them take any other careers that they became masters of the world wide banking institutions. So if anything, the Jews are doing alright for themselves in SPITE of the Christians.


They are the most persecuted people on earth


Are they? Christians keep telling me that they are the most persecuted people on earth.



Where do they say that exactly? If you are saying it in the present tense I think people from all faiths are being persecuted in different parts of the world, but where specifically are 'Christians' telling you they are the most persecuted people on Earth? I assume you are meaning some individuals on ATS have said that? So?


They say it here on ATS. It's one of the standard retorts I get when I post in one of the many Islamophobia threads scattered around ATS. I also see it used when a Christian wants to adopt a Christian persecution complex when I start debating their religion. I'm pretty sure it hasn't sprung up in this thread though.


No, because it's the opinion of some, and usually seems to hang around perhaps the fact that as some people of some faiths believe their beliefs are being eroded by society then they are being persecuted - that's their opinion. When you say 'they', you are referring to some individuals, to tar everyone with the same brush is always disingenuous.

Groups of people have been persecuted throughout history - example: being Christian at various times in parts of England meant you were in a seriously unpleasant situation, but for anyone to compare that to what those of the Jewish faith have had to endure for such a sustained time is perhaps being a little naive. Not sure you can say the same in the 21st Century, would like to think not. To suggest it was purely Christianity that persecuted is similarly naive, persecution pre-dates Christianity.




posted on Apr, 27 2015 @ 12:08 PM
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originally posted by: uncommitted

No, because it's the opinion of some, and usually seems to hang around perhaps the fact that as some people of some faiths believe their beliefs are being eroded by society then they are being persecuted - that's their opinion. When you say 'they', you are referring to some individuals, to tar everyone with the same brush is always disingenuous.


I wasn't doing that. I just said that I've been told in the past by Christians that they are the most persecuted religion in the world. I never said that all Christians believe that.


Groups of people have been persecuted throughout history - example: being Christian at various times in parts of England meant you were in a seriously unpleasant situation, but for anyone to compare that to what those of the Jewish faith have had to endure for such a sustained time is perhaps being a little naive. Not sure you can say the same in the 21st Century, would like to think not. To suggest it was purely Christianity that persecuted is similarly naive, persecution pre-dates Christianity.


I think you meant "Catholic" instead of "Christian" when referring to the England analogy. I also never claimed that Christians invented persecution. Actually, that can't be true anyways since my OP pointed out persecution in the OT and the OT predates Christianity.



posted on Apr, 27 2015 @ 12:10 PM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t

They say it here on ATS. It's one of the standard retorts I get when I post in one of the many Islamophobia threads scattered around ATS. I also see it used when a Christian wants to adopt a Christian persecution complex when I start debating their religion. I'm pretty sure it hasn't sprung up in this thread though.


oh you are such a kidder KS

You make a statement based on thin air and then back it up, justify it with another statement based on thin air.

You sure are one krazy shot

I am pretty sure you just like to say silly things over and over to have a little fun with every one, seriously because no one could unintentionally be that silly



posted on Apr, 27 2015 @ 12:18 PM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: uncommitted

No, because it's the opinion of some, and usually seems to hang around perhaps the fact that as some people of some faiths believe their beliefs are being eroded by society then they are being persecuted - that's their opinion. When you say 'they', you are referring to some individuals, to tar everyone with the same brush is always disingenuous.


I wasn't doing that. I just said that I've been told in the past by Christians that they are the most persecuted religion in the world. I never said that all Christians believe that.



Point of clarity here, and it's very important. You used the term 'Christians believe they are the most persecuted', not 'Some Christians on ATS'. Sorry, you may think that is being pedantic, but it's really not.



posted on Apr, 27 2015 @ 12:22 PM
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originally posted by: uncommitted

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: uncommitted

No, because it's the opinion of some, and usually seems to hang around perhaps the fact that as some people of some faiths believe their beliefs are being eroded by society then they are being persecuted - that's their opinion. When you say 'they', you are referring to some individuals, to tar everyone with the same brush is always disingenuous.


I wasn't doing that. I just said that I've been told in the past by Christians that they are the most persecuted religion in the world. I never said that all Christians believe that.



Point of clarity here, and it's very important. You used the term 'Christians believe they are the most persecuted', not 'Some Christians on ATS'. Sorry, you may think that is being pedantic, but it's really not.


Here is my text:

Christians keep telling me that they are the most persecuted people on earth.


There is no "all" in front of Christians, just the simple phrase that Christians keep telling me this. To put "all" in front of that expression is reading too far into it. Also, it's not like non-Christians regularly tell me this, so that's why I just used the word "Christians".



posted on Apr, 27 2015 @ 12:24 PM
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originally posted by: borntowatch

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

They say it here on ATS. It's one of the standard retorts I get when I post in one of the many Islamophobia threads scattered around ATS. I also see it used when a Christian wants to adopt a Christian persecution complex when I start debating their religion. I'm pretty sure it hasn't sprung up in this thread though.


oh you are such a kidder KS

You make a statement based on thin air and then back it up, justify it with another statement based on thin air.

You sure are one krazy shot

I am pretty sure you just like to say silly things over and over to have a little fun with every one, seriously because no one could unintentionally be that silly


Well it's good to see YOU don't believe that Christians are the most persecuted religion in the world. Though don't believe that Christians aren't saying these things. Because they most assuredly are.
edit on 27-4-2015 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 27 2015 @ 12:25 PM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: uncommitted

No, because it's the opinion of some, and usually seems to hang around perhaps the fact that as some people of some faiths believe their beliefs are being eroded by society then they are being persecuted - that's their opinion. When you say 'they', you are referring to some individuals, to tar everyone with the same brush is always disingenuous.


I wasn't doing that. I just said that I've been told in the past by Christians that they are the most persecuted religion in the world. I never said that all Christians believe that.


Groups of people have been persecuted throughout history - example: being Christian at various times in parts of England meant you were in a seriously unpleasant situation, but for anyone to compare that to what those of the Jewish faith have had to endure for such a sustained time is perhaps being a little naive. Not sure you can say the same in the 21st Century, would like to think not. To suggest it was purely Christianity that persecuted is similarly naive, persecution pre-dates Christianity.


I think you meant "Catholic" instead of "Christian" when referring to the England analogy. I also never claimed that Christians invented persecution. Actually, that can't be true anyways since my OP pointed out persecution in the OT and the OT predates Christianity.


Actually, I can see why you have said that, but I was also referring also to pre Constantine era Christians as well. I know you are looking at the whole Henry the 8th thing probably and to be quite honest, it's hardly something that should be the subject of a pissing contest is it? There are no awards for being most persecuted but if there were, it's not a particularly nice prize.
edit on 27-4-2015 by uncommitted because: typo



posted on Apr, 27 2015 @ 12:27 PM
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posted on Apr, 27 2015 @ 12:42 PM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t


Well it's good to see YOU don't believe that Christians are the most persecuted religion in the world. Though don't believe that Christians aren't saying these things. Because they most assuredly are.


Now KS you are getting worryingly silly
i know of open doors ministry and they have never claimed christians are THE MOST persecuted religion world wide had a quick read through that thread

Nowhere and I mean NOWHERE did I read anything or anyone say or state that christians were the MOST persecuted religion in the world. It could but I didnt find it

So in my humble opinion your statement sounds just a wee bit outlandish and silly.

We should all take a breath and settle down

Sure you arnt being a little bit sensationalist, a little mountain out of a mole hill for dramatic effect

Now I am not saying this is true, I just read three international articles that state comprehensively that Christianity is the worlds most persecuted religion. Maybe it is true

www.huffingtonpost.com...

www.raymondibrahim.com...

www.bbc.com...

Go figure, go and argue it. Not with me though
edit on b2015Mon, 27 Apr 2015 12:53:13 -050043020151pm302015-04-27T12:53:13-05:00 by borntowatch because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 27 2015 @ 12:49 PM
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originally posted by: borntowatch

originally posted by: Krazysh0t


Well it's good to see YOU don't believe that Christians are the most persecuted religion in the world. Though don't believe that Christians aren't saying these things. Because they most assuredly are.


Now KS you are getting worryingly silly
i know of open doors ministry and they have never claimed christians are THE MOST persecuted religion world wide had a quick read through that thread

Nowhere and I mean NOWHERE did I read anything or anyone say or state that christians were the MOST persecuted religion in the world. It could but I didnt find it

So in my humble opinion your statement sounds just a wee bit outlandish and silly.

We should all take a breath and settle down

Sure you arnt being a little bit sensationalist, a little mountain out of a mole hill for dramatic effect


Dude seriously...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I don't actually believe these claims, but you are being foolish if you think that there aren't Christians that are actually making those claims. That last thread is the Pope saying that about Christians. And I'm not going to go dredge up individual posters' specific posts to prove a point. If you don't want to believe that such claims are being made, fine. I really don't care.
edit on 27-4-2015 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 27 2015 @ 12:58 PM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: borntowatch

originally posted by: Krazysh0t


Well it's good to see YOU don't believe that Christians are the most persecuted religion in the world. Though don't believe that Christians aren't saying these things. Because they most assuredly are.


Now KS you are getting worryingly silly
i know of open doors ministry and they have never claimed christians are THE MOST persecuted religion world wide had a quick read through that thread

Nowhere and I mean NOWHERE did I read anything or anyone say or state that christians were the MOST persecuted religion in the world. It could but I didnt find it

So in my humble opinion your statement sounds just a wee bit outlandish and silly.

We should all take a breath and settle down

Sure you arnt being a little bit sensationalist, a little mountain out of a mole hill for dramatic effect


Dude seriously...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I don't actually believe these claims, but you are being foolish if you think that there aren't Christians that are actually making those claims. That last thread is the Pope saying that about Christians. And I'm not going to go dredge up individual posters' specific posts to prove a point. If you don't want to believe that such claims are being made, fine. I really don't care.


Well I was foolish and wrong seemingly and I wont say this to often but according to my recent and little research I think the pope is right, it seems KS everyone who has told you that christians are the most persecuted is also right and I was wrong.

It does seem Christianity is the most persecuted religion in the world

Learn something all the time.

I apologise to those i said were wrong, my mistake.


But its ok KS you dont have to admit you were wrong and apologise.



posted on Apr, 27 2015 @ 01:12 PM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: uncommitted

You mean this?
“The Myth of Persecution”: Early Christians weren’t persecuted


You are suggesting that the book by one academic is enough? It's an interesting concept I'll grant you, but I'm not sure I agree with her findings, or that Roman records would have been kept post Constantine to show what may (or may not) have taken place. Sorry, I'm open minded on such things but it does amuse me when people project mindsets from 20th/21st century onto those of a couple of thousand years ago.

That link though, it's a little paradoxical. It says persecution and martyrdom didn't take place, and then acknowledges it did. Strange.


This is not to deny that some Christians were executed in horrible ways under conditions we’d consider grotesquely unjust. But it’s important, Moss explains, to distinguish between “persecution” and “prosecution.”


If you're the one being executed with no other viable reason why (I'm assuming that treason is an easily trumped up charge) this would be a fairly extreme level of splitting hairs.



posted on Apr, 27 2015 @ 01:16 PM
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a reply to: borntowatch

Uh... ok... The point I was making is that Christians were making this claim. Not whether the claim was true or not. If you want to believe it just because the pope said, then fine. I'll just add you to the list of Christians who have told me this in the past.



posted on Apr, 27 2015 @ 01:36 PM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: borntowatch

Uh... ok... The point I was making is that Christians were making this claim. Not whether the claim was true or not. If you want to believe it just because the pope said, then fine. I'll just add you to the list of Christians who have told me this in the past.


oh there you go again with your tricky silly statement trying to pretend

I linked three different international sources, three.

I also suggested you do your own research and then said I wasnt sure

The claim appears to be true and I believe the sources and you have said something that is blatantly wrong and ill
informed attacking a view that is accurate and held by christians

Even after exposing the truth you try to side step

Hey KS do add me to those who believe that christians are the most persecuted religion on earth, I am not stupid enough to deny it any longer in the face of the evidence, unlike others


Dude SERIOUSLY

www.huffingtonpost.com...

www.raymondibrahim.com...

www.bbc.com...


You have a problem


Dude SERIOUSLY

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
The point I was making is that Christians were making this claim. Not whether the claim was true or not.


go read your post again....


I cant believe you can just 180 like that, come out all sparkly clean, as if you were a politician running for office.

You attack people for telling the truth, why do that? Peoples are being slaughtered, killed and starved, abused and you make it about you. You are a bigot who cant see anyone but themselves.
People are being murdered and you are point scoring on ats, thats really sad, really sad


originally posted by: Krazysh0t
The point I was making is that Christians were making this claim. Not whether the claim was true or not.



Dude SERIOUSLY...............



posted on Apr, 27 2015 @ 01:50 PM
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when I read this



originally posted by: Krazysh0t

I don't actually believe these claims, but you are being foolish if you think that there aren't Christians that are actually making those claims. That last thread is the Pope saying that about Christians. And I'm not going to go dredge up individual posters' specific posts to prove a point. If you don't want to believe that such claims are being made, fine. I really don't care.



and then I read this



originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: borntowatch

Uh... ok... The point I was making is that Christians were making this claim. Not whether the claim was true or not. If you want to believe it just because the pope said, then fine. I'll just add you to the list of Christians who have told me this in the past.


I think you are being disingenuous
Thats really sad that you think its acceptable



posted on Apr, 27 2015 @ 01:56 PM
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originally posted by: uncommitted

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: uncommitted

You mean this?
“The Myth of Persecution”: Early Christians weren’t persecuted


You are suggesting that the book by one academic is enough? It's an interesting concept I'll grant you, but I'm not sure I agree with her findings, or that Roman records would have been kept post Constantine to show what may (or may not) have taken place. Sorry, I'm open minded on such things but it does amuse me when people project mindsets from 20th/21st century onto those of a couple of thousand years ago.


There could be more, but it is hard for academia to explore concepts that may paint Christianity in a negative light or highlight long standing lies that the church has claimed as true.


That link though, it's a little paradoxical. It says persecution and martyrdom didn't take place, and then acknowledges it did. Strange.


This is not to deny that some Christians were executed in horrible ways under conditions we’d consider grotesquely unjust. But it’s important, Moss explains, to distinguish between “persecution” and “prosecution.”


If you're the one being executed with no other viable reason why (I'm assuming that treason is an easily trumped up charge) this would be a fairly extreme level of splitting hairs.



I think you are trying to compare the article title to the claims made within. Article titles aren't always written by the author of the article, so you should usually ignore the title and read the content to see if it is contradictory. That being said. If I live in Roman times and ended up crucified for treason, but wasn't a Christian, can I claim martyrdom for whatever cause I was for? Or am I just a criminal of the state?



posted on Apr, 27 2015 @ 02:07 PM
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originally posted by: borntowatch

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: borntowatch

Uh... ok... The point I was making is that Christians were making this claim. Not whether the claim was true or not. If you want to believe it just because the pope said, then fine. I'll just add you to the list of Christians who have told me this in the past.


oh there you go again with your tricky silly statement trying to pretend

I linked three different international sources, three.

I also suggested you do your own research and then said I wasnt sure

The claim appears to be true and I believe the sources and you have said something that is blatantly wrong and ill
informed attacking a view that is accurate and held by christians

Even after exposing the truth you try to side step

Hey KS do add me to those who believe that christians are the most persecuted religion on earth, I am not stupid enough to deny it any longer in the face of the evidence, unlike others


So basically when the pope says it, you think it is true. Though I've already told you I'm not trying to debate the legitimacy of this point. I told you I don't believe it and I don't, but I'm not really concerned with debating why I don't believe it. Which you seem to think is me backtracking or something. I just don't care if it is true or not in regards to the thread. Christians say it. We agree that it is said by them, end of discussion there. Let's move back to the topic of the OP.


Dude SERIOUSLY

www.huffingtonpost.com...

www.raymondibrahim.com...

www.bbc.com...


None of those links work...



You have a problem


Dude SERIOUSLY

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
The point I was making is that Christians were making this claim. Not whether the claim was true or not.


go read your post again....


I cant believe you can just 180 like that, come out all sparkly clean, as if you were a politician running for office.

You attack people for telling the truth, why do that? Peoples are being slaughtered, killed and starved, abused and you make it about you. You are a bigot who cant see anyone but themselves.
People are being murdered and you are point scoring on ats, thats really sad, really sad


Lol you are seriously warped in your thinking. Continually projecting all sorts of things onto me that aren't true. It's actually kind of comical. Good thing I don't take anything you say seriously anymore.



posted on Apr, 27 2015 @ 02:11 PM
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originally posted by: borntowatch
when I read this



originally posted by: Krazysh0t

I don't actually believe these claims, but you are being foolish if you think that there aren't Christians that are actually making those claims. That last thread is the Pope saying that about Christians. And I'm not going to go dredge up individual posters' specific posts to prove a point. If you don't want to believe that such claims are being made, fine. I really don't care.



and then I read this



originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: borntowatch

Uh... ok... The point I was making is that Christians were making this claim. Not whether the claim was true or not. If you want to believe it just because the pope said, then fine. I'll just add you to the list of Christians who have told me this in the past.


I think you are being disingenuous
Thats really sad that you think its acceptable


Perhaps you need a class in reading comprehension.

From the first post:
"but you are being foolish if you think that there aren't Christians that are actually making those claims."

From the second post:
"The point I was making is that Christians were making this claim."

Just because I gave a personal opinion on if it was true or not doesn't mean I was proving that it was true or false. I said I don't believe it is true. That was it. I never had any intention of backing that claim up with evidence because it was just a personal anecdote. The rest of my posts are consistent with their message, so try again. Your attempt to corner me in a semantics game is bush league.



posted on Apr, 27 2015 @ 02:27 PM
link   

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: uncommitted

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: uncommitted

You mean this?
“The Myth of Persecution”: Early Christians weren’t persecuted


You are suggesting that the book by one academic is enough? It's an interesting concept I'll grant you, but I'm not sure I agree with her findings, or that Roman records would have been kept post Constantine to show what may (or may not) have taken place. Sorry, I'm open minded on such things but it does amuse me when people project mindsets from 20th/21st century onto those of a couple of thousand years ago.


There could be more, but it is hard for academia to explore concepts that may paint Christianity in a negative light or highlight long standing lies that the church has claimed as true.


That link though, it's a little paradoxical. It says persecution and martyrdom didn't take place, and then acknowledges it did. Strange.


This is not to deny that some Christians were executed in horrible ways under conditions we’d consider grotesquely unjust. But it’s important, Moss explains, to distinguish between “persecution” and “prosecution.”


If you're the one being executed with no other viable reason why (I'm assuming that treason is an easily trumped up charge) this would be a fairly extreme level of splitting hairs.



I think you are trying to compare the article title to the claims made within. Article titles aren't always written by the author of the article, so you should usually ignore the title and read the content to see if it is contradictory. That being said. If I live in Roman times and ended up crucified for treason, but wasn't a Christian, can I claim martyrdom for whatever cause I was for? Or am I just a criminal of the state?


Sorry, but that is very hypothetical isn't it? Without knowing the reasons behind why the person was judged as being treasonous it could be for all sorts of reasons. From the reading I have done, early Christians were referred to as atheist because they didn't follow the Roman Gods. So, if you denied any God then yeah, if you were crucified for your belief (or lack thereof). If you were crucified for treason where there was clear evidence you caused damage to the empire directly (which although I'm sure may have happened, wouldn't have actually followed the Christian doctrine of the time) then it would be a little more tricky would it not?

Kind of a strawman argument really.



posted on Apr, 27 2015 @ 02:37 PM
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a reply to: uncommitted

I find this hard to believe since the Roman Empire was notoriously open to religious freedom. The thing is that Roman rule kind of required you to worship Caesar as a god. Christian doctrine rejects this since according to them, there is only one god and Caesar isn't it.

Also keep in mind that once Constantine established Christianity as the state religion, religious persecution spiked through the roof against all religions that WEREN'T Christian. It's always interesting how Christians dredge up these alleged claims of Roman persecution, but fail to talk about all the widespread persecution done by the Romans against non-Christians after Constantine.

Persecution of pagans in the late Roman Empire



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