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Racism in the Bible

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posted on Apr, 24 2015 @ 05:21 PM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t
originally posted by: StalkerSolent



Not really. Intolerance is intolerance, regardless of the reasons. Would you agree with white people born today having to be held accountable for slavery?


Yes, really. You said one thing, and I said something different. (And no
)



Why should I do any of that? The bible is the bible. I'm supposed to read it and understand it myself. I shouldn't need supplemental lessons from other learned scholars on how to read it.


There probably would have been a point where I would have agreed with you, but I rather believe that coming onto this site fixed that.



Isn't the whole point that the Bible should be as accessible as possible so that as many people as possible are exposed to the truth?


Something like that. But if you're going to go all "I can haz readz Biblez myself without any help" you ought to understand that it was written in a different language for starters.



Ok. Let's humor you. How about posting some links then?


Sure thing. *Googles* I think this might help you understand the distinction of ceremonial law in the Old Testament.
BTW...I'm pretty sure Google works the same for both of us




In the end, what's the difference? They still aren't allowed to be with god for whatever reason.


They weren't allowed to worship corporately. God's omnipresent, remember?




Because it needs to be done.


Why?

See, it's kinda weird, because I keep getting the sense from your writing that you actually do believe in the God of the Bible. Which I doubt, but you keep referring to Him like a real guy. And your main point is to get people to view the Bible as bad, not as untrue. Which I find interesting.




posted on Apr, 24 2015 @ 05:23 PM
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a reply to: StalkerSolent


But there is a broad understanding of Christian doctrine that most Christians agree on.


Yes, there is. Treat Others the Way You Want to be Treated....


And one of those things is that salvation has nothing to do with the sins you commit and that worthiness doesn't get you into heaven.


No.

?

One is worthy of "heaven" when they do whatever their particular sect of Christ-idolators dictates (such as):
Be baptized at birth
Be Born-Again as an adult
Say fifteen 'Hail Mary Full of Grace's, and wear hair shirt
Speak in tongues
Convert unsuspecting innocents to the dogma
Burn witches
Stone adulteresses
Never eat shellfish
Protest at dead soldiers' funerals
Never, ever pick flowers or mend pants on the Sabbath (or feed the dog or pull weeds)
etc
and
so on
and some more.....



because we all suck.
edit on 4/24/2015 by BuzzyWigs because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 24 2015 @ 05:23 PM
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originally posted by: Klassified

originally posted by: StalkerSolent
originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: StalkerSolent



Yeah, but -- see? They see themselves as trash, who can't help but screw up, and project that same esteem onto their children....they claim they don't have it together, but AT LEAST they are going to be saved.......
where all the other [even worse] people are going to BURN IN HELL.


Um...you don't understand Christian doctrine.
You're probably going to come back shortly and tell me that you totally do, but you don't. Sorry

I think what she is referring to is, verses like Isaiah 64 and Romans 3, and other such verses in the old and new testament. By the biblical God's "standards", humans are a rancid bunch, and their hearts are dark and irredeemable. Unless of course, they become Christians.


The part that's throwing me is the idea that the people that go to hell are "less worthy."
The Bible says nobody is worthy.
But hey, what do I know?



posted on Apr, 24 2015 @ 05:26 PM
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originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: StalkerSolent



No?
One is worthy of "heaven" when they do whatever their particular sect of Christ-idolators dictates (such as):
Be baptized at birth
Be Born-Again as an adult
Say fifteen 'Hail Mary Full of Grace's, and wear hair shirt
Speak in tongues
Convert unsuspecting innocents to the dogma
Burn witches
Stone adulteresses
Eat shellfish
Pick flowers or mend pants on the Sabbath (or feed the dog or pull weeds)
etc
and
so on
and some more.....


.................
You do realize that those (typically) are viewed as symptoms of conversion, and that in pretty much all cases Christians do not believe the acts themselves lead to worthiness. For instance, even the more works-based camps who would say that you must be baptized wouldn't say that baptism saves you. They'd say Christ saves you.



posted on Apr, 24 2015 @ 05:34 PM
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originally posted by: StalkerSolent

originally posted by: Klassified

originally posted by: StalkerSolent
originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: StalkerSolent



Yeah, but -- see? They see themselves as trash, who can't help but screw up, and project that same esteem onto their children....they claim they don't have it together, but AT LEAST they are going to be saved.......
where all the other [even worse] people are going to BURN IN HELL.


Um...you don't understand Christian doctrine.
You're probably going to come back shortly and tell me that you totally do, but you don't. Sorry

I think what she is referring to is, verses like Isaiah 64 and Romans 3, and other such verses in the old and new testament. By the biblical God's "standards", humans are a rancid bunch, and their hearts are dark and irredeemable. Unless of course, they become Christians.


The part that's throwing me is the idea that the people that go to hell are "less worthy."
The Bible says nobody is worthy.
But hey, what do I know?

Understood. That's the whole point she is making. That neither Christians nor unbelievers are worthy on their own merits. She's saying she disagrees that humans are innately unworthy, and "born with a sin nature".

Am I getting you right Buzzy?



posted on Apr, 24 2015 @ 05:35 PM
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a reply to: StalkerSolent

"Symptoms of conversion"????
Really?

Never heard that term before, but it seems appropriate. Starts with some before they can even speak or creep or walk.....


Too many Christians believe that Adam and Eve and a Talking Snake caused the downfall of all men (and then blamed women for that little episode as well) .... and that we are all, ALL, hopelessly unworthy, no matter what we do.

So, but, there is ONE thing you can do, and it's really hard to screw up:
Say, "Jesus is Lord."

That's it! No really! That's all....no matter whatever else you do or think or plan...you're
good to go! And then!!! WOW - it's ALL BETTER.


Yeah. That's not a thing.



posted on Apr, 24 2015 @ 05:37 PM
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a reply to: Klassified


Am I getting you right Buzzy?

Perfectly.

Love you!!



posted on Apr, 24 2015 @ 06:29 PM
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a reply to: Krazysh0t

Howdy Krazysh0t.

Firstly, Jesus was not a racist. Skin had nothing to do with his statement to the Canaanite woman. Jesus had not yet died. The Jews were still the major focus of salvation at the moment. If you knew the history of the Canaanites, you know why He was using the metaphor of a canine to refer to the people. The Canaanites, like all of the rest of the world, had continued to reject God.

Now, speaking to the Old Testament writings, you will find that God was not worried, again, about race. He chose the Hebrews, not because of their race, but because of their faith. The other peoples had rejected God a long time ago. The Hebrews had acted in faith in following Him.

God said He chose them, and He did, but it was because of their lineage.

God chose Seth after Cain killed Abel.

God chose Noah because of his righteousness.

God chose Abraham because of his.

God chose Jacob over Esau even though the birth right was Esau's because of Jacob's righteousness.

Jacob was renamed "Israel". Esau went on to become the Edomites.

From Jacob would come the 12 tribes.

These 12 tribes would grow up in Egypt first. So, as you see, all of the sons of Noah besides Abraham rejected God.

(The reason for the lineage is not only to understand why God favored the Hebrews, but also to shed light on why God needed to preserve a lineage - for the blood of Jesus Christ had to be shed in the future.)

Then the Edomites rejected God. (Everyone rejects God. When God chooses someone, they also choose back.)

400 years later, Moses and Aaron were found to be the most fit to guide the 12 tribes out of Egypt.

Moses disobeyed once and was disallowed to enter the promised land. Joshua was to take the charge. Joshua and one other were the only two people alive out of all the 12 tribes that got to see Egypt and also the Promised land in their lives.

Those people who were faithful to God (although, not at all perfectly, as they spent 40 years suffering because of their disobedience to God, but they kept following at any rate. Good thing, because God wondered if any on Earth would love Him. God allowed Moses to convince Him that He should not forego the promise He gave Abraham concerning His promise) needed a land within which to live. God wanted to give them the best land. Because the best land was currently in the hands of those who destroyed each other every day, God told Israel to go and take that land for themselves.

This is not an issue of race. This is an issue of obedience and faith. Cain, the murderer, believed God favored the person over the sacrifice. God favored the sacrifice of Abel because it was good. He didn't cast Cain out. Cain cast himself out by murdering Abel. And then God granted Cain to leave and also put a mark of protection upon him that no one should take revenge lest they receive 7 times worse the punishment!

Moving forward.

With Joshua the the charge, the Israelis won many battles with God's help. They conquered high walls and lands of living giants. This was not a race issue. It was an obedience and a faith issue.

Those cultures already rejected God and destroyed as they pleased at any rate. Why should they complain if they are destroyed by any one else?

I cannot write the whole Bible here, so I will move forward more quickly now.

Israel is set up. Israel ends up making lots of mistakes. Sometimes Israel is good and sometimes it is bad. Israel is then split into Israel and Judah. (from hereon, I refer to the combination as only "Israel"). When Israel is really bad, God lets the powers of the world win. God let Babylon destroy Israel and its temple. This started the beginning of God's revelation for all mankind. Persian leader Cyrus eventually let the Hebrews rebuild their temple. Israel was thriving again, but not for long. IT was a naughty city. Eventually Jesus was born.

IN all this, there was no racism. It was all about obedience and faith. Obedience in love for the brothers and sisters and respecting the feast days in order to pay attention to the foreshadowing of salvation, and faith in staying with God.

Jesus is the "lion of the tribe of Judah". The son of David. That's the flesh aspect.

The lineage needed to be preserved particularly through that line of faith for the events to unfold as they should.

God reveals in the Old Testament what those who ultimately reject Him will indeed face. The New Testament period is the grace of Jesus Christ on all people of the world. The stipulation is simple: If you believe in Him and His love and you also perform that same yourself, then all people who do that are obedient and faithful. All people that do not do that are obviously not obedient and faithful. Look at the time span - 2000 years of allowing progress in this area. That's a long time.

Jesus was not referring to the Canaanite woman because she "is" a dog. He was referring to her lineage of a lack of faith. But He also was testing her faith. Was she able to rise above the stigma attached to her lineage? Could she go so far as to demand grace from God? She was quite faithful and intelligent. Therefore, He gave her what she asked for.

Once Jesus died at the hands of the Romans by request of the Jews, it was time for the salvation of the gentiles as well. It had always been that the prophets of Israel were killed by the people of Israel because of their disbelief and greed. But now, the Prophet of Israel had been killed by the gentiles as well. They had made the perfect sacrifice and had no idea that they had done it.

Not to dismiss the other disciples who are very important, but now comes in Paul. He is the main focus of salvation for gentiles. This is not about race. It never was. It was always about obedience and faith.

When the earthly Israel failed, it was proven that no manner of works could save one's self. That man was incapable of exacting the knowledge and wisdom which it so claimed to have.

So salvation then was offered to all. The gentile nations would be grafted into the tree of Israel to have access to the promise that God gave Abraham.

All who have faith like Abraham would be saved.

The Kingdom is not of this world however. This world is run by a completely different set of laws. So many have abused the narrative and the history in an attempt to prove something or another about this world's government. It has nothing to do with it. People are liars.

The Kingdom of Jesus Christ belongs to all those who believe and follow Him. It's already here. It's been here since He died. That's the Revelation. The manifestation of that Revelation will happen in the future when all who denied true love see the culmination of all that it means to deny love.

If any of you here deny love, then you obviously want a world of hate. That will be your world. If you do not deny love, then your world will be love. When you learn what true love is, then all knowledge and wisdom and experience follows naturally.

This has nothing to do with race. It has everything to do with obedience and faith.

The first brothers and sisters were in the pre-flood world. The next brothers and sisters were the sons and daughters of Noah. The next brothers and sisters were Abraham and his offspring. Then the next brothers and sisters became all through Jesus.



posted on Apr, 24 2015 @ 06:43 PM
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Retracted.
edit on 4-24-2015 by WakeUpBeer because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 24 2015 @ 06:54 PM
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a reply to: WakeUpBeer

Like the title. "I absolve you of all your sins." Ego te absolvo a peccatis tuis.



posted on Apr, 24 2015 @ 07:04 PM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t

And you are doing SUCH a great job clearing that up for me.

Between you and randy, it is pretty funny how mad the uber-religious get when shown the flaws in their text. Like you haven't even ATTEMPTED to refute any of my arguments and instead jump straight to derisive dismissal. It's pretty telling that I must have hit pretty close to home there.


As I said you wont understand
You cant understand because you cant think

Yes there is racism in the bible
People are racist
The bible tells people a history of racism

How do I refute what I have explained is a fact

Dose God allow it, yes God allows it because we have a free will, does God endorse it, no.

You are just looking for an argument to evangelise your faith


Krazyshot
I dont buy into your religion, sorry
edit on b2015Fri, 24 Apr 2015 19:30:19 -050043020155pm302015-04-24T19:30:19-05:00 by borntowatch because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 24 2015 @ 07:05 PM
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a reply to: TarzanBeta
You call it obedience and faith. I call it bigotry, war and genocide by a group that were intent on conquering anyone who believed differently from them, and/or rejected their tyrannical "god". You talk about love, but the blood, and the body count in the old testament doesn't say much about the Hebrew god's love for anyone. As for the new testament. Not much changed. Conquer the world for God, and those who reject him will be murdered in the "tribulation" by the billions when god pours out his wrath on the planet. Then they will be forever condemned after they die.


edit on 4/24/2015 by Klassified because: retracted



posted on Apr, 24 2015 @ 07:19 PM
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a reply to: Klassified

Points for hating bigotry. No points for pointing the finger in the wrong direction.



posted on Apr, 24 2015 @ 07:34 PM
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originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: TarzanBeta
You call it obedience and faith. I call it bigotry, war and genocide by a group that were intent on conquering anyone who believed differently from them, and/or rejected their tyrannical "god". You talk about love, but the blood, and the body count in the old testament doesn't say much about the Hebrew god's love for anyone. As for the new testament. Not much changed. Conquer the world for God, and those who reject him will be murdered in the "tribulation" by the billions when god pours out his wrath on the planet. Then they will be forever condemned after they die.



Jesus asked humanity to obey two laws

Love God because if you love God and value the promise of the future, the second law becomes easier
Love each other
Thats tyrannical ?

Now the choice is yours, dont blame God, there must be justice.



posted on Apr, 24 2015 @ 08:21 PM
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a reply to: Barcs


Perhaps I am feeling a bit jaded by constant argument rather than open minded discussion

But it seems to me that these threads between Christians and non Christians cause only further division and make each side more staunch in their own stand

Maybe I am wrong ... I often am

But for me it felt like nothing is to be gained ... as most all Christians on ATS are not racist and each interprets The Bible in their own particular way ...

But yes I guess there is always going to be a minority of fanatics and zealots in any walk of life ... but I see very few here and they do not affect my real life










edit on 24-4-2015 by artistpoet because: mistake in text



posted on Apr, 24 2015 @ 08:50 PM
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First century Christians, both converted former Jews and Pagans that had owned slaves were suppose to free them, basically apply the golden rule. Read the book of Philemon, the whole letter is basically Paul asking him to free Onesimus who had become a Christian too.

But what they were suppose to do, and what they actually did is a different story, that's why Christians in North America that owned slaves before the civil war were lacking in their proper application of what the bible teaches in regards to how to treat our fellowman. But it would have been an inherited cultural thing, the parents would be teaching the kids that it was ok, with flawed reasoning that God's servants in the past owned slaves so we can too.

Here is a question let's say you were a wealthy Roman that freed a dozen slaves on conversion to Christianity but the slaves didn't want to go ? Because they were treated well and were scared they might be homeless and without food once freed. Then what ? Since turning people onto the street with nothing wouldn't have been Christian either.
Pay them for their services and give them room and board ?



posted on Apr, 24 2015 @ 10:32 PM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: Krazysh0t





Though I think it is funny that you are the second Christian to get offended


Oh but I'm not offended homeboy. I'm disgusted.


Why? Because I'm doing to your bible what you guys try to do to Evolution all the time? Pick it apart. Except I'M actually making an attempt to use the source material to argue my point instead of straw mans.


Oh yes, the Bible has suffered greatly because of you.
So much for why but I do wonder how much of your BS and
obsession for cookie cutter lies you actually believe yourself?
edit on Rpm42415v362015u11 by randyvs because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 12:29 AM
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originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
First century Christians, both converted former Jews and Pagans that had owned slaves were suppose to free them, basically apply the golden rule. Read the book of Philemon, the whole letter is basically Paul asking him to free Onesimus who had become a Christian too.

But what they were suppose to do, and what they actually did is a different story, that's why Christians in North America that owned slaves before the civil war were lacking in their proper application of what the bible teaches in regards to how to treat our fellowman. But it would have been an inherited cultural thing, the parents would be teaching the kids that it was ok, with flawed reasoning that God's servants in the past owned slaves so we can too.

Here is a question let's say you were a wealthy Roman that freed a dozen slaves on conversion to Christianity but the slaves didn't want to go ? Because they were treated well and were scared they might be homeless and without food once freed. Then what ? Since turning people onto the street with nothing wouldn't have been Christian either.
Pay them for their services and give them room and board ?


Just a question in relation to your statement about the bible telling christians to free slaves

Where?

Onesimus was a runaway slave who once caught by authorities would have been executed
Paul tells him to return to Philemon
There is contention if Onesimus was a slave

and if the Jesus or Paul or any of the other apostles spoke out against slavery then there would have probably been a slave revolt throughout the roman empire. Christ did not come to set man free from the burdens of this life.
Jesus died to free us from sin so we can be in relationship with God in heaven.
The earth is nearly hell and will be till Christ returns

I think you may be wrong, no offence



posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 01:52 AM
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originally posted by: artistpoet
Why would a non Christian deliberately provoke Christians ... what is to be gained and who does it benefit
So much for tolerance and live and let live






And the ironic thing is that they're the ones throwing out the word "bigot" left and right.

God still loves them, as do I, because that's what the Lord said we should do.



posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 01:59 AM
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a reply to: Krazysh0t

I fail to see correlation here. I hate all religion with a PASSION, but still find this OP extremely ignorant.

Ignorance in religion has evolved alongside of humanities ignorance. You are only spreading hatred with this type of thread.

What about racism/prejudice/sexism/bigotry that is in ALL religions. Cherry picking a few passages from a made up book to generalize an entire group of people is the most ignorant thing anybody can do.

Good job.



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