What if Turkey is really the root of ALL civilisations?

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: normipoo

Aborigines are another good point, not only the Hopi who tell stories about unusually white faces.

You make it sound as if there is a singular, across the board Hopi mythology which simply is not the case. The oral traditions vary widely from one group to the next. There is no standardized tradition amongst the Hopi.

I can't still get over the fact there is next to no archeology in Australia.

You're kidding right? There is a ton of research done in Australia.

But the cave paintings with the white dudes with Halos, it doesn't have to be aliens like alternative archeologists claim, living in a cave makes you look different, that's for sure. And i kind of think like the sparrow humans once too originated from one and the same place, maybe met up with others which spread earlier, i keep forgetting there are also neandterthaleans and maybe others which got away before. But these "gods came" stories are very similiar and obviously very human.

So what is your evidence of people who live in caves looking different? do you have a citation to support these claims or is it just spit ball hypothesizing? It's all fine and good to think outside the box but if you can't support those ideas with facts, then its just speculation.

Thanks for wasting your time, but i still don't really know what your problem is? Or how you can be so sure it is only 3000-3500 years. it is rock. try to date that. and still inhabited today=> it is impossible to say when the first people moved in there.

If you want to discount entirely the earliest dated artifacts found there then all you have to do to get a definitive date is examine the patina on the rock face. After it is carved, a patina develops on the surface of the rock features in a process called cortification. This patina is most definitely dateable.



In regards to your OP-

The second and third layer on Göbekli Tepe are about from the same time.(regarding the formation of the Bosporus)

These layers predate the attributed date of the Bosporus formation by more than 2 millennia.

And then we got the Hopi, Pueblos and all that, on the other side of the atlantic ocean, all claiming they come from "a place underground", like Derinkuyu, which i would guess would be pretty hard to tell how old it really is, because, it is axed tuff stone. And not much left from the very beginnings of these cities, because they were again and again in use by different groups and some still are inhabited.

Dating of this site was addressed above. Regarding the Hopi, what is your source for the claim of coming from a place underground? the 2 main myths associated with the Hopi coming into this world are-

Two main versions exist as to the Hopi's emergence into the present Fourth World. The more prevalent is that Spider Grandmother caused a hollow reed (or bamboo) to grow into the sky, and it emerged in the Fourth World at the sipapu. The people then climbed up the reed into this world, emerging from the sipapu. The location of the sipapu is given as in the Grand Canyon.

The Grand Canyon is not underground nor is it a cave.

So what i suggest is basically, what if about the same time the Bosporus was born our continents reached their breaking point and not millions of years ago? If you think about it, the current speed the American and European continental plates are drifting apart is about 1,89 cm/year, the distance is



The Atlantic's width varies from 1,538 nautical miles (2,848 km; 1,770 mi) between Brazil and Sierra Leone to over 3,450 nautical miles (6,400 km; 4,000 mi) in the south.

Wiki, now if you think about it: 284.800.000cm and a drift speed of 1,89/year, at about 10.000bc it could have been only about 1,507 km and this is without exactly knowing how much ice there still was, if they changed their angle towards eachother while drifting and so on. I'm thinking, it could have been one apocalyptic, erruptive event and the movement of the drifting continents is actually slowing down, since that, which would be natural because of the friction.

Except that everything known in geology and about plate tectonics completely disagrees with this and all current data supports what is currently accepted regarding the geologic timescale of when and how the continents have moved around the world for eons.

Will say, am i the only one thinking it is entirely possible Hopis and early Hethiters, or Indo-Iranian-Europeans are in fact the same tribe?

DNA and genetics show this to be an entirely untenable hypothesis though. We can trace vie MtDNA how when and where populations moved across the globe.

While at the same time the distances towards Asia never really mattered that much, because we obviously have no big pool in between, so to me that is no question at all. But could these people started to move out from their Cappadocian caves a lot earlier and that's the root where the native americans underground legends are coming from?

Not likely or even remotely plausible. People have been in the Americas for over 20KA at least and possibly quite longer. You make it sound like everyone on earth started out living in a Turkish cave which simply is not the case at all. Worldwide migration patterns are fairly well known at this point. Sure, there are some I's to dot and T's to cross still but everyone did not originate in Turkey. Unless you've got some new evidence to support the notion?


www.bradshawfoundation.com...

www.livescience.com...

news.nationalgeographic.com...

a reply to: peter vlar

Okay, the patina is not reliable, because they probably "renovated" the place since it is in use for so long.
And the Hopi legend is they come up from the underground, that it is the Grand Canyon, they're talking about is a theory.
Tons of research in Australia? Can you show me some sites? Or books?

And i just stated before, there where people these white faces bumped into, so that kind of is the point, isn't it?
I just can't see where the white faces would have come from, if they were all dwelling under the sun all the time.
I am talking culture not people spread from there and mostly it is legends like "lived underground" "gods came" etc.
Also we discussed the tectonic point and i admitted that not only my maths was off, but also that it isn't necessary, because the ice shield would have built a landbridge. Page1, i think.
I just want to take a piss on Sitchin and Daenikken, no ancient aliens, it could have been white faced=> strange looking humans, with very different customs.
And you can hardly try to tell me that they found such old DNA, because that would only be possible in teeth and as far as i know even that is not possible for so many years back, because it dries out.
And with the dating of the Goebekli layers there is an error from a few hundred years possible, easy.
Look at the egypt researchers, a few hundred years more or less, is almost not detectable.

I am actually pretty much inside the box, if you think about it, just wanted to put an end to all the "cargo culture = aliens" bs.

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: peter vlar

Okay, the patina is not reliable, because they probably "renovated" the place since it is in use for so long.

No, the patina is reliable. Saying "they probably renovated" is hardly an argument against science. Please show where it was renovated to the point that a patina could not be obtained for dating.

And the Hopi legend is they come up from the underground, that it is the Grand Canyon, they're talking about is a theory.

So I should take your word for what the Hopi meant instead of their own elders and oral traditions? interesting approach.

Tons of research in Australia? Can you show me some sites? Or books?

www.australianarchaeologicalassociation.com.au...
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And i just stated before, there where people these white faces bumped into, so that kind of is the point, isn't it?
I just can't see where the white faces would have come from, if they were all dwelling under the sun all the time.

Have you bothered looking into any of the folk traditions of the people in question? Even today, many Aboriginal Australians utilize whote face and body paint for ceremonial purposes. Not being able to see or understand doesn't mean that people were living their entire lives in caves away from the sun. There would be genetic changes in the melanin production that we would still be able to see today.

I am talking culture not people spread from there and mostly it is legends like "lived underground" "gods came" etc.

Neolithic people used "gods" as an explanation for all sorts of natural phenomena. Much of which came from either the sky or below ground. It doesn't mean humanity or culture originated in caves.

Also we discussed the tectonic point and i admitted that not only my maths was off, but also that it isn't necessary, because the ice shield would have built a landbridge. Page1, i think.

There was a land bridge in Berringia, One that was once Doggerland and one that was once Sundaland which closed the gap between Indonesia and Australia making it easier to navigate by boat. There weren't any across the Atlantic which you allude to with your inclusion of alleged coc aine mummies. MAybe I missed it but after going back over pages 1&2 I don't see where you mention any land bridge except for a tentative reference to Berringia. Either way, per your initial hypothesis, the continents are within a few hundred feet of where they were several thousand years ago (620 +/-)

I just want to take a piss on Sitchin and Daenikken, no ancient aliens, it could have been white faced=> strange looking humans, with very different customs.

and like anyone proposing sitchin et al. I would ask what the evidence is to support the supposition. It's not a personal attack on you.

And you can hardly try to tell me that they found such old DNA, because that would only be possible in teeth and as far as i know even that is not possible for so many years back, because it dries out.

We have intact DNA that a little over 40KA but you don't need it to be older to trace MtDNA and frequencies of allele changes across the world. We've decoded the Neanderthal and Denisovan genome as well from remains that were a little over 40KA. We even have genetic evidence of a separate hominin species that we have no physical evidence for from testing the DNA of West Africans.

And with the dating of the Goebekli layers there is an error from a few hundred years possible, easy.

But it's not a few hundred years. It's a couple thousand. Huge difference when talking about late Pleistocene cultures

Look at the egypt researchers, a few hundred years more or less, is almost not detectable.

I think Egyptologists would disagree with that notion but hey... to each their own.

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: normipoo

Aborigines are another good point, not only the Hopi who tell stories about unusually white faces. I can't still get over the fact there is next to no archeology in Australia.
But the cave paintings with the white dudes with Halos, it doesn't have to be aliens like alternative archeologists claim, living in a cave makes you look different, that's for sure. And i kind of think like the sparrow humans once too originated from one and the same place, maybe met up with others which spread earlier, i keep forgetting there are also neandterthaleans and maybe others which got away before. But these "gods came" stories are very similiar and obviously very human.

a reply to: DiggerDogg

Thanks for wasting your time, but i still don't really know what your problem is? Or how you can be so sure it is only 3000-3500 years. it is rock. try to date that. and still inhabited today=> it is impossible to say when the first people moved in there.
Sure you're totally mainstream, but why should it not be a little bit different.
Also I'd like to know what your problem with Turkye is?

a reply to: TheCretinHop

Not for sure, but possibly. Once you think your sure, you start riding the bias-train. But i like my idea too. Thanks

Just lol at you calling me "mainstream".

Radiometric dating, that's generally how they do it. Archaeologists also look for artifacts and match them up to a certain time period and culture, and they can give a rough estimate of how long an area has been inhabited/settled. Old cities were usually built on top of each other and you can dig through the layers to see the different phases of habitation.

So that's probably how they estimated the age of the caverns, and how long they've been inhabited. It's not that difficult, archaeologists do this stuff all the time.

But sure, go on living in your fantasy land. In reality, the oldest civilizations are definitely the Levant/Mesopotamia/Eygpt and not Turkey.

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: peter vlar

Okay, the patina is not reliable, because they probably "renovated" the place since it is in use for so long.
And the Hopi legend is they come up from the underground, that it is the Grand Canyon, they're talking about is a theory.
Tons of research in Australia? Can you show me some sites? Or books?

And i just stated before, there where people these white faces bumped into, so that kind of is the point, isn't it?
I just can't see where the white faces would have come from, if they were all dwelling under the sun all the time.
I am talking culture not people spread from there and mostly it is legends like "lived underground" "gods came" etc.
Also we discussed the tectonic point and i admitted that not only my maths was off, but also that it isn't necessary, because the ice shield would have built a landbridge. Page1, i think.
I just want to take a piss on Sitchin and Daenikken, no ancient aliens, it could have been white faced=> strange looking humans, with very different customs.
And you can hardly try to tell me that they found such old DNA, because that would only be possible in teeth and as far as i know even that is not possible for so many years back, because it dries out.
And with the dating of the Goebekli layers there is an error from a few hundred years possible, easy.
Look at the egypt researchers, a few hundred years more or less, is almost not detectable.

I am actually pretty much inside the box, if you think about it, just wanted to put an end to all the "cargo culture = aliens" bs.

Tracing Mitochondrial DNA is how we discovered humans (most likely) emerged from Africa. All extant human mtDNA can be traced back to a single common ancestor, and that ancestor did not come from anywhere near Turkey. That's just how it is.

Also, if you are lamenting the (relatively) small number of sites in Australia, the reason for that is fairly obvious. The Aboriginals never settled and never developed agriculture, so consequently they never had a "civilization" to speak of. They were all nomadic hunter-gatherers , so they didn't have any sort of large settlements, complex stonework, metal tools, etc. They mostly used organic material to make tools, things like wood and bone, which decay quickly. So most early traces of them are long gone. But as the guy above pointed out, there are some large megalithic sites in Australia and there are defintely people studying those.

a reply to: peter vlar &
a reply to: DiggerDogg

Alright you both caught me, i got nothing but a few wild ideas and dangerous half-knowledge, but that is why i love my ATS so much there is always someone who knows more. Because i am all fiction and imagination.
Maybe i just want to find the root of all myths and the fun part is: I don't care enough for reality to really research for myself. You may call me lazy.
But still thanks, was interesting and now i learned something more, without effort, you info-feeders you.

I have other wild threads around here you could take to bits and pieces if you have the nerves to read through my ramblings.
Case closed, doesn't work.

Worth noting that the Anasazi (Pueblos) petroglyphs are shockingly similar to those in Hawaii. There is quite a large body of water in between those two sites at present but it is thought thousands of years ago the west coast was an archpalego.

Anasazi


Hawaii

Also worth noting that the Dine or Navajo have a creation "myth" about two tribes of Navajo were separated by a great distance when brought to earth or this level of earth. If the two tribes ever met it was "end of days". There is a tribe in Alaska with the same lineage as those of the Dine. Don't figure.

a reply to: Rosinitiate

Aha. Collecting more hints. Maybe it is really some Pangaea stories behind it all? But just imagine what that would include, our human "conscience" would have been up and working when we were very ape-ish. Reminds me of the story where mice inherited learned behavior. And that is awesome, because it fits my theory of the Pool of Thoughtsmash, or collective consciousness for those sans humor. It is just hard to believe it is all coincidence.

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: Rosinitiate

Aha. Collecting more hints. Maybe it is really some Pangaea stories behind it all? But just imagine what that would include, our human "conscience" would have been up and working when we were very ape-ish. Reminds me of the story where mice inherited learned behavior. And that is awesome, because it fits my theory of the Pool of Thoughtsmash, or collective consciousness for those sans humor. It is just hard to believe it is all coincidence.

Well everything is fact until it's not. What really happened to the dinosaurs? Seems every 50 years or so that changes also. Leading theory I believe is Meteor right? In school I was taught volcano. Perhaps both are true but it's interesting to think how rich the oxygen must have been for such massive creatures. Would the oxygen be too rich for humans? Obviously not, yet for equally obvious reason we can survive without the same levels. Fancy that.

Boy I'd give my left ...... Just to step out of time and watch as it all happens. I swear I wouldn't be a naughty God.

originally posted by: Rosinitiate


Well everything is fact until it's not. What really happened to the dinosaurs? Seems every 50 years or so that changes also. Leading theory I believe is Meteor right? In school I was taught volcano. Perhaps both are true but it's interesting to think how rich the oxygen must have been for such massive creatures. Would the oxygen be too rich for humans? Obviously not, yet for equally obvious reason we can survive without the same levels. Fancy that.

The reason why it was taught a couple of decades ago that the K/T extinction event was related to Volcanism is that all available evidence at the time was related to increased volcanism. This was before the Chicxulub crater was found which completely redefined how the event was viewed and gave geologists and paleontologists their first definitive forensic evidence that could be tied directly to the time period in which the extinction event occured. Since then, several other craters dating to the same time as Chicxulub have been found demonstrating it was a rather large, worldwide event caused by a large meteor or asteroid that broke up just prior to entering Earths atmosphere. The others include the Boltysh crater in Ukraine, Silverpit crater in North Sea, and the Shiva crater offshore western India. These impacts caused a chain reaction leading to increased volcanic activity which added even more debris and chemical compounds into the atmosphere which led to a pretty severe "nuclear winter" lasting decades. There are a couple of other items that mark this as a pretty definitive COD for our dino friends. One is that all dinosaur fossils are at or below this layer. a second is that the layers between the Cretaceous and the Paleogene are very definitively separated by a layer of extremely high Iridium that doesn't occur before or after and this is conclusively related to stellar impacts with the Earth. Specifically a meteor or asteroid impact. Regarding O2 levels during the late Cretaceous, yes...they were about 30-35% higher than they are currently. More importantly than the slightly higher O2 is that dinosaurs, like birds today, had hollow bones as well as a system of air sacks which allowed them to be able to more efficiently utilize the O2 than mammals can. This is one reason why birds are able to fly. Aside from the hollow bones making them a bit lighter, their ability to more efficiently use their oxygen intake allows them to utilize their energy more efficiently. As efficient as birds are with their O2, they pale in comparison to some Cretaceous avian dinosaurs who would have been capable of crossing the Atlantic or Pacific without needing to land, unlike birds of today. Hollow bones are another reason that sauropods for example, could have such long necks. It's a bit hard to get entirely into with just a paragraph or 2 and one could dedicate chapters if not entire books to the subject regarding the obvious differences in physiology between dinosaurs and modern mammals. It's just one of many reasons they were around for over 150 million years while hominids have only been around for several million.

First agriculture was found in South-West Asia, close to east Turkey. I would say that area was where civilisations began, going from a more nomadic lifestyle to a settled one. With agriculture giving ethnicities the room to grow in population.

originally posted by: peter vlar

originally posted by: Rosinitiate


Well everything is fact until it's not. What really happened to the dinosaurs? Seems every 50 years or so that changes also. Leading theory I believe is Meteor right? In school I was taught volcano. Perhaps both are true but it's interesting to think how rich the oxygen must have been for such massive creatures. Would the oxygen be too rich for humans? Obviously not, yet for equally obvious reason we can survive without the same levels. Fancy that.

The reason why it was taught a couple of decades ago that the K/T extinction event was related to Volcanism is that all available evidence at the time was related to increased volcanism. This was before the Chicxulub crater was found which completely redefined how the event was viewed and gave geologists and paleontologists their first definitive forensic evidence that could be tied directly to the time period in which the extinction event occured. Since then, several other craters dating to the same time as Chicxulub have been found demonstrating it was a rather large, worldwide event caused by a large meteor or asteroid that broke up just prior to entering Earths atmosphere. The others include the Boltysh crater in Ukraine, Silverpit crater in North Sea, and the Shiva crater offshore western India. These impacts caused a chain reaction leading to increased volcanic activity which added even more debris and chemical compounds into the atmosphere which led to a pretty severe "nuclear winter" lasting decades. There are a couple of other items that mark this as a pretty definitive COD for our dino friends. One is that all dinosaur fossils are at or below this layer. a second is that the layers between the Cretaceous and the Paleogene are very definitively separated by a layer of extremely high Iridium that doesn't occur before or after and this is conclusively related to stellar impacts with the Earth. Specifically a meteor or asteroid impact. Regarding O2 levels during the late Cretaceous, yes...they were about 30-35% higher than they are currently. More importantly than the slightly higher O2 is that dinosaurs, like birds today, had hollow bones as well as a system of air sacks which allowed them to be able to more efficiently utilize the O2 than mammals can. This is one reason why birds are able to fly. Aside from the hollow bones making them a bit lighter, their ability to more efficiently use their oxygen intake allows them to utilize their energy more efficiently. As efficient as birds are with their O2, they pale in comparison to some Cretaceous avian dinosaurs who would have been capable of crossing the Atlantic or Pacific without needing to land, unlike birds of today. Hollow bones are another reason that sauropods for example, could have such long necks. It's a bit hard to get entirely into with just a paragraph or 2 and one could dedicate chapters if not entire books to the subject regarding the obvious differences in physiology between dinosaurs and modern mammals. It's just one of many reasons they were around for over 150 million years while hominids have only been around for several million.

I believe a sudden massive decrease in plantlife would be enough to kill off the big dinos. I also think this is ice-age related, seeing the decrease in temperature would hurt (semi-) coldblooded creatures hard too. Oxygen and carbon-dyoxide levels have their effects on temperature and plantlife levels as we all know due to climate change studies I reckon. Plants absorb carbon-dyoxide and emit oxygen through fotosynthisis when possible. With fauna emitting the carbon-dyoxide and flora the oxygen one can see a clear relationship between our excistencis I think. A green planet, alge and flora, would also alter the albedo of our planet, it's reflective properties, increasing temperature through absorbing sunlight, where an ice encased planet would reflect allot of the suns rays.

I was checking out this: Breathtaking Drone Footage Of Sudan’s Forgotten Nubian Pyramids on Facebook earlier and wondering about the origins of these cultures. It reminded me of a map of HAARP facilities I saw posted on ATS the other day. There is this concept of "antipodes" and ley lines that made me wonder if some of these pyramids are connected in a similar way.

Geolines.ru has been mentioned a bit on ATS, but it appears to be offline now, save The Wayback Machine. It's pretty interesting stuff and they have good Google Earth panoramic views of many sites like Uluru in Australia. SYSTEM OF ANCIENT MONUMENTAL STRUCTURES

For the first time the hypothesis that the ancient megalithic structures may be located on our planet on a particular system, launched in 70 years, Russian scientists N.F.Goncharov, V.A. Makarov and V.S.Morozov. According to their theory , the kernel of the Earth is a growing crystal of iron, which brings in all the shells of the planet right symmetry of the two Platonic polyhedra - the icosahedron and dodecahedron, and the hierarchy of subsystems, the main division. On the tops of the crystal, just as the majority of seats and is situated the ancient civilizations, pyramids and other famous buildings.

originally posted by: TheunT
First agriculture was found in South-West Asia, close to east Turkey. I would say that area was where civilisations began, going from a more nomadic lifestyle to a settled one. With agriculture giving ethnicities the room to grow in population.

As of now, we think the first agriculturalists would have been the Natufians, which was sort of near Turkey I guess, but really it's the modern day Levant.

en.m.wikipedia.org...

They were a curious group of people, essentially they started out gathering wild cereals and hunting (like all other Paleolithic people) but they were sedentary, I.e. they had established permanent or semi-permanent settlements. But they are still technically considered a Paleolithic group, not Neolithic. At some point, they started cultivating the wild cereals and they had a sort of fusion going on where they survived partially from their cereal "agriculture" and partly by gathering/hunting. They also had some large furnaces where they worked limestone and other things.

It's widely accepted that civilization came out of Iraq, near the Euphrates river.

This is an argument that has gone on since humans started studying history and scholarship:

The Turks are usually behind the Egyptians, Indians, and Sumerians.

With Göbekli Tepe the Turks are getting a new look.


But there are still years of archeological finds to have over there


Nothing is settled or clear here

The problem with a lot of this archeological, alien, ancient alien history is that commentaries want to use the bible only to confirm there pet theories and leave out the basics of the story, which they have little insight in, that is the concept of the spiritual fall of man as being the main point of the narrative, in which btw is also Quranic based.

a reply to: Peeple


I just saw a documentary on Gobekli Tepe, and I was blown away. It may truely be the the true cradle of civilization. Although Mesopotamia was not too far away. Just last week, I saw a cool illustration of human genetic migration around the world. If we can correlate its founding in 10,000 B.C.E. (or even earlier - 14,000 B.C.E. ) with the genetic map I saw, it would answer a LOT of questions. The Egyptian dynasty did not start until 3100 B.C.E.

Here is the link:

Journey of Mankind

They have not even removed half the dirt from the site and they just discovered four other "circles" using ground penetratin radar.
I think I will return to college and earn my degree in Archeology and hopefully work on this site.


P.S. I did not know that Klaus Schmidt passed away last year.

In Memoriam:

Klaus Schmidt

originally posted by: Willtell
The problem with a lot of this archeological, alien, ancient alien history is that commentaries want to use the bible only to confirm there pet theories and leave out the basics of the story, which they have little insight in, that is the concept of the spiritual fall of man as being the main point of the narrative, in which btw is also Quranic based.

Like naoh's flood was the end of an ice-age?

a reply to: Willtell

Ah thank you for bringing up the spiritual aspect of our history, it is indeed interesting we started to built religious monuments first, when I think they started to get too lazy to wander around, at the same time huge (meaningless for survival) get errected.
And in my mind the bible is a story collection like the Grimms, just different sdtories less fantasy if you will, more about history but in a pretty fable like coat. Whoever takes it literal is just as wrong as those neglecting it's contents entirely.

a reply to: corsair00

As always thanks for your input and sorry it took me so long to read it. Makes me wonder if and how the ley lines and the "Earth conscience/ Electro magnetic field of our planet" are embeded in our collective minds. If we really react to it so much we built subconsciously along them, they have a lot more significance than we think. Maybe, it's always a maybe, but an interesting one.

a reply to: Kratos40

I knew he died, but it's really sad, thanks for the reminder and tribute.
And if I were you I would carefully rephrase that into the egyptian structural remnants aren't older than 3500 bc max.
They could just as well have used older structures and built new things with that like the Romans did with some of their colosseis.
And they were using coc aine, but that's a personal bias, because of the OP, you know would solve some spiritual mysteries. The Coca plant and not coc aine per se. But still maybe it really is the oldest medicine we use... Sorry for the drift, I wanted to say something else... now I forgot what it was.