Judge Recognizes Two Chimpanzees as Legal Persons

a reply to: Hoosierdaddy71

Hahahaha! Now I have heard it all. Well, can they get conscripted in some countries? Will they pay child support and/or alimony? Can they vote lol.

Ohh! "Judge Barbara, the defendant before you is a chimp who is charged with driving under the influence of an illegal substance inhibiting his or her ability to control a motor vehicle upon a public road and further could not reveal his or her identity. When asked who owned the motor vehicle, the defendant, being a chimp replied "ooo ooo arhh arhh". Subsequently arrested and conveyed to the lockup and now appears before the court."

"The defendant, an unknown chimp, is known to you yer honour. The defendant is unclothed. You gave him or her their rights as a citizen of this blessed land."

C'mon,,,this is gotta be a joke or hoax right. Is Judge Barbara educated?0/0

Can't stop laughing,,, sorry.

Won't sleep tonight. My god, monkey magic.

Bally

originally posted by: Forensick

originally posted by: Hoosierdaddy71

originally posted by: beezzer
a reply to: Hoosierdaddy71

So chimps are people, but people who haven't been through birth aren't people.

This is why throat-punching idiots should be made legal.

Yeah, a fetus has no rights but a chimp does.
Makes me want to go full chuck norris.

Do you want a vote for your foetus too?

No, but I don't want chimps to be considered human either.

Something is afoot..........

My GF's daughters came home from school a few days ago (7th grade) and told me their teacher told them that humans aren't "technically" animals...

Planet of the Apes, here we come

ETA - I'm not sure apes are getting smarter, but I have little doubt humans are getting dumber by the day

If any species deserves to be recognized as legal persons it is intelligent apes such as chimpanzees. They are capable of learning sign language and telling you what they are thinking. I think it's quite inhumane to confine such creatures to laboratories and put them through a life of experimentation. If that means the bio-sector wont develop as fast then so be it.

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

Crikey mate!!

I read this post four times. Next time my wife gives me the bird, I reckon,,, she knows what what shes thinking aye. ..

"bio-sector" Told her that but she ran away screaming unintelligible stuff and is now sitting up a big gum tree next to a koala chatting away.

No worries though. I'll coax her down with a Coffs Harbour banana.

Sigh,,,,sorry CO,,,,,just can't get a handle on this..

Bally

Something along this line needs to be done to protect higher minded animals such as great apes, elephants, ceteceans, and something needs to be done to protect all the other animals too.

a reply to: Unity_99

Not just animals but insects too aye...Some animals like the 'Bat eared fox' feed on insect lava and their cousins on another branch of the mamillian tree, the 'fox eared bats' actually feed on flying insects. I can see the connection here and the protection of insects through all the stages of their life cycle will ensure these 2 rare species will live on.

The protection of jellyfish should be considered too as these are consumed by marine life and substantially contribute to the aqua environment. Too many boats with propellars run over these poor creatures so I reckon we should put a ban on all boats that use propellars and educate and regulate those in row and paddle boats with regards to possible harmful damage they can cause to jelly fish.

Kind regards,

Bally.

originally posted by: bally001
Not just animals but insects too aye...

Reductio ad absurdum.

It's obvious that chimps, the closest animal to humans, who only separated themselves from our line 3 millions years ago, have most of the mental capabilities of humans if you give them the opportunity.

Is a feral child a legal person? He can't speak, he behaves like an animal because he never learned differently, yet he's still a human.

On the other hand, a chimp that can communicate with us proves signs of emotions and self-consciousness.

The only thing that makes us more "human" than chimps is that we learned to talk and express ourselves. It's not because chimps can't talk they have nothing to say.

Sorry it's absurd to compare a chimp with an insect when it comes to defining who deserves to be recognized as a "person". Insects or jellyfishes like many other animals never showed any sign of conscious intelligence.

a reply to: JUhrman

No, I should apologise/say sorry because I understood the last paragraph in your post included all animals not just chimpanzees.

Bally

originally posted by: 200Plus
Planet of the Apes, here we come

ETA - I'm not sure apes are getting smarter, but I have little doubt humans are getting dumber by the day

originally posted by: JUhrman

originally posted by: bally001
Not just animals but insects too aye...

It's obvious that chimps, the closest animal to humans, who only separated themselves from our line 3 millions years ago, have most of the mental capabilities of humans if you give them the opportunity.

Seems to me, despite the absurdity some claim of this decision (despite some paradoxical/hypocritical issues), that the judge may in fact be ... way ahead of his time.
Wild Chimps In Uganda Have Learned To Look Both Ways When Crossing The Roads

... Chimpanzees, for example, alter their grouping and vocalizations in order to evade human detection whilst raiding croplands or entering areas potentially occupied by hunters. Now, unlike a deer stuck in headlights, it seems that wild chimps are beginning to realize the importance of crossing roads safely, as scientists have observed them implementing similar safety precautions to us, such as looking both ways for oncoming traffic.

*****

... two and a half years observing them around a road crossing in Kibale National Park, Uganda. During this time, they witnessed 122 individual crossings of this hazardous road, which is used by almost 90 vehicles an hour, whizzing along at speeds of up to 60 mph (100 kph). But although this road represents a serious risk to the chimps, the researchers found that they took this into account when crossing and exhibited both vigilance and caution.

More than 90% of the animals looked both ways before and during crossing, and many even stood up in a bipedal posture to check for traffic and reduce the risk of being hit, the researchers report in the American Journal of Primatology. Additionally, more than 55% of them ran across the road, demonstrating that they realize the importance of getting to the other side as soon as possible, and almost 20% paid attention to others whilst crossing, either checking on them or waiting for them.

*****

Interestingly, the researchers also observed that the behavior of chimps in this area was different to those observed crossing roads in Bossou, Guinea. For example, during this investigation, chimps tended to split into small subgroups of usually two individuals when crossing, but in Boussou they generally all crossed together in a line. The researchers hypothesize that this could be because the road in Kibale National Park is significantly busier and more hazardous than the one in Boussou, so the chimps are forced to adopt a different strategy to make sure they stay safe.

Study located here abstract only

Which while impressive, is nothing compared to ...
Chimps Use Spears To Hunt

A troop of chimpanzees in southeastern Senegal are proving to be a continued source of surprise and amazement for primatologists. Not only do members forge weapons to hunt, making them the only known group to use tools to injure or kill prey, but it turns out that females actually engage in this behavior more than males. This could mean that, unexpectedly, female chimps pioneered tool use for hunting, and that the first weapon-yielding early humans could have also been females. The research has been published in Royal Society Open Science.

Back in 2007, whilst observing a group of savanna chimps in Fongoli, Senegal, Iowa State University anthropologist Jill Pruetz spotted something that had never before been observed: individuals were making sharp spears and using them to hunt vertebrate prey. But that wasn’t the only thing that stood out, as Preutz also noticed that more females were engaging in this behavior than males. At the time, she and her research team did not have enough data to be able to assert that it was indeed more common in females, so they continued to follow the animals for the next seven years.

During this time, the scientists observed troop members snapping off branches, removing the leaves and even using their teeth to trim and sharpen the ends. On average, these tools were around 75 centimeters (30 inches) in length. Weapon in hand, the chimps would then creep up on sleeping bush babies and stab them, either mortally or wounding them enough to make them easy to snatch and kill with hands and teeth.

Throughout the duration of the study, the team observed more than 300 tool-assisted hunts, 175 of which were performed by females. Given the fact that hunting groups were male dominated, with females usually only making up 40% of the members, males were significantly less likely to hunt than females, carrying out only 39% of the hunts. This was surprising since male chimpanzees hunt more than females in general, and within this group they also accounted for the vast majority of all captures.

*****

The fact that no other chimp groups are known to engage in this behavior is also extremely interesting. The researchers propose this may have something to do with the limited supply of vertebrate prey in the area, which could have encouraged them to become more inventive in order to meet their nutritional needs.

Study located here full open access
I was going to post this in its own thread, and still may as it centers on an entirely different discussion encompassing several subjects really, but thought I would share it here considering this discussion.

The implications of this are huge and I hope to get to my thread later today for ATS to discuss.

a reply to: bally001

You are getting way too worked up about this. Unity_99 is absolutely correct, higher minded animals deserve to have their intelligence recognized. There have been many studies to show that creatures such as elephants, apes, and dolphins have an exceptionally high level of intelligence. There is an elephant which can paint, a chimp who can beat any human at speed memory tests, a chimp that understands spoken English, a Gorilla that can speak using sign language with over 1000 words, and many more amazing examples out there if you take a look.

a reply to: JUhrman

The only thing that makes us more "human" than chimps is that we learned to talk and express ourselves. It's not because chimps can't talk they have nothing to say.

But they do have hands, so they undoubtedly have a complex sign language that is just too difficult for us to decipher. They have skillfully hidden their massive cities that they have built using their superior engineering skills, maybe they are underground?
I wonder if they take their invisible ships to Antarctica on missions of science and exploration? It must be chilly for them, not wearing any clothing. Maybe it is invisible too.

originally posted by: butcherguy
a reply to: JUhrman

The only thing that makes us more "human" than chimps is that we learned to talk and express ourselves. It's not because chimps can't talk they have nothing to say.

But they do have hands, so they undoubtedly have a complex sign language that is just too difficult for us to decipher. They have skillfully hidden their massive cities that they have built using their superior engineering skills, maybe they are underground?
I wonder if they take their invisible ships to Antarctica on missions of science and exploration? It must be chilly for them, not wearing any clothing. Maybe it is invisible too.

More reductio ad absurdum.

A young child has as much vocabulary and skill as a chimp and yet it is considered a person.

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

Cheers and thanks CO. I will look at those examples. I must say I wasn't getting worked up. Just my thoughts. Finding it hard to express my feelings here on ATS without getting a hiding.

I just thought you were for the protection of all animals including insects and jellyfish. I know they are not a higher intelligence but they do contribute to the ecology and are an indication as to whether the earth is capable of sustaining apes.

Bally.

a reply to: butcherguy

Wow, you certainly copped it too aye. What does "reductio ad absurdum" mean? I got that too.

Bally

originally posted by: JUhrman

originally posted by: butcherguy
a reply to: JUhrman

The only thing that makes us more "human" than chimps is that we learned to talk and express ourselves. It's not because chimps can't talk they have nothing to say.

But they do have hands, so they undoubtedly have a complex sign language that is just too difficult for us to decipher. They have skillfully hidden their massive cities that they have built using their superior engineering skills, maybe they are underground?
I wonder if they take their invisible ships to Antarctica on missions of science and exploration? It must be chilly for them, not wearing any clothing. Maybe it is invisible too.

More reductio ad absurdum.

Wow....
You are pretty sharp!

a reply to: butcherguy

So I guess for you the primitive peoples living in various parts of the world aren't human because they haven't done that stuff? Makes sense.

As far as the judge saying these monkeys are persons, not technically. She granted them habeas corpus, she didn't say they're persons. Of course, habeas corpus has only been applied to people before. So that's where you get the spin that she recognized them as persons. Technically that's not what she did.

Here's an article with some more relevant information:

Richard Cupp, a law professor at Pepperdine University in Malibu, California, and a noted opponent of personhood for animals, cautions against reading too much into the ruling, however. “The judge may merely want more information to make a decision on the legal personhood claim, and may have ordered a hearing simply as a vehicle for hearing out both parties in more depth,” he writes in an e-mail to Science. “It would be quite surprising if the judge intended to make a momentous substantive finding that chimpanzees are legal persons if the judge has not yet heard the other side’s arguments.”

news.sciencemag.org...

originally posted by: bally001
What does "reductio ad absurdum" mean? I got that too.

It means using an absurd example to make a point.

No one here said chimps are skilled in engineering, yet butcherguy used this absurd example to somehow say they can't be recognized as persons. It's of course a fallacy. A person isn't defined by it's engineering skills or even by the affiliation to a civilization.

a reply to: JUhrman

Crikey, so I made an absurd example too?

Guess I'll have to stop. i'm sorry. I don't care about jellyfish and insects anymore.

Bally

originally posted by: JUhrman

originally posted by: bally001
What does "reductio ad absurdum" mean? I got that too.

It means using an absurd example to make a point.

No one here said chimps are skilled in engineering, yet butcherguy used this absurd example to somehow say they can't be recognized as persons. It's of course a fallacy. A person isn't defined by it's engineering skills or even by the affiliation to a civilization.

All butcherguy has to do is check the definition of person in a dictionary.
Others can do that too.... but it would ruin their argument.