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originally posted by: windword
a reply to: WarminIndy
But the Medieval Kabbalah was to raise the golem. The Sephirot is nothing more than just some guy's idea of giving attributes to random things. Nothing more.
Some guy? You mean Enoch? Qabala, which is derived from the Book of Enoch, is much, much more than what you suggest, and you'd know that if you'd studied it instead of looking to discredit it.
originally posted by: WarminIndy
Well, I believe Heaven to be real. So the levels of Heaven, I would not think of them as merely "planes of consciousness" or "levels of ascendency".
The spiritual realm isn't only Heaven, but we don't really know the whole of the spiritual realm, but to me it is real and I have experienced in my life the reality of that.
I believe it is more real than I am. I don't understand about different planes. Levels to me are like sections.
originally posted by: Seede
The biblical understanding of death should not be esoteric.
originally posted by: Seede
In order to understand this you must consider all scripture pertaining to what is actually meant by this. The Revelation of Jesus to John declares "and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
originally posted by: bb23108
originally posted by: WarminIndy
Well, I believe Heaven to be real. So the levels of Heaven, I would not think of them as merely "planes of consciousness" or "levels of ascendency".
The spiritual realm isn't only Heaven, but we don't really know the whole of the spiritual realm, but to me it is real and I have experienced in my life the reality of that.
I believe it is more real than I am. I don't understand about different planes. Levels to me are like sections.
Okay, so you believe there is a spiritual realm that is not the Kingdom of Heaven. Now isn't that esoteric? Is such a realm actually described in Christianity? That would be interesting because if the kingdom of Heaven is beyond this lower realm, what is its purpose in Christianity?
In other traditions this spiritual realm is the etheric (subtle/astral) planes where we ascend to when we die. This is where the transmigration process I described earlier occurs. Now if one is free of all karmic ties to both the physical and the subtle (and causal) worlds, then the God-Light Above (the Kingdom of God) is one's possibility. No way otherwise because one's "impure" (distracted) attention will keep one from being able to enter the pure white Light-Love-Bliss of the Kingdom of God.
So what about this other spiritual realm you believe in? If this is part of Christian doctrine, then this makes sense relative to reincarnation/transmigration, and also reconciles my earlier question. And, that Jesus does reward various types who are loving, also indicates another spiritual realm exists that is not the Kingdom of God.
If this is true in Christianity, then it is NOT a black and white matter relative to Heaven or Hell. What say you (or any one else)?
originally posted by: windword
a reply to: WarminIndy
I've been "studying" Qabal/Kabbalah, since the 80's. There are various ways to become "Jewish", esoterically, even though I am Jewish through ancestry.
I don't think you have one clue to the esoterics behind it.
I can provide links too!
Extreme Kabbalah
It leads to superstitions, which Jesus tells us to avoid.
Isaiah 29:11
For you this whole vision is nothing but words sealed in a scroll. And if you give the scroll to someone who can read, and say, "Read this, please," they will answer, "I can't; it is sealed."
Mark 4
And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
originally posted by: windword
a reply to: WarminIndy
It leads to superstitions, which Jesus tells us to avoid.
As opposed to blind faith? LOL RICH! All of Christianity is based on superstition!
Isaiah 29:11
For you this whole vision is nothing but words sealed in a scroll. And if you give the scroll to someone who can read, and say, "Read this, please," they will answer, "I can't; it is sealed."
Mark 4
And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
Sounds pretty esoteric to me!
originally posted by: WarminIndy
No, the Kingdom of Heaven is in the spiritual realm.
It is a real place, not a physical place like me sitting here in 4D typing this message.
It's not an imaginary place, it is not a idealized place, it is real.
It touches the natural, as the natural touches the spiritual.
originally posted by: WarminIndy
What is the purpose of all of this? What is gained by all of it?
originally posted by: WarminIndy
I say the spiritual realm touches the natural world and the natural world touches the spiritual, but we have only gotten a glimpse of it. The kingdom of heaven surrounds the earth, but only touching it, because it is the real spiritual kingdom.
originally posted by: WarminIndy
And we just don't know everything or even half of what is there. And we don't have to meditate to experience it, we don't have to even believe in anything to experience it. The reality of that place is more real than us. We are only the image of God.
If there is a spiritual realm outside of the Kingdom of God, this makes a HUGE difference in terms of answering my rather simple questions asked earlier.
John 4: 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Are you sure all of Christianity is based in superstition? If Christianity is really esoteric, then it wouldn't bad to be superstitious then would it?
Superstition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superstition
Wikipedia
Superstition is the belief in supernatural causality—that one event causes another without any natural process linking the two events—such as astrology, religion, omens, witchcraft, prophecies, etc., that contradicts natural science.
originally posted by: windword
a reply to: WarminIndy
Are you sure all of Christianity is based in superstition? If Christianity is really esoteric, then it wouldn't bad to be superstitious then would it?
Esotericism isn't based on superstition, it's based on knowledge, private knowledge. Christianity requires one to believe that Jesus of Nazareth is God, born of virgin, died for sin and rose from the dead to defeat death... That's superstition!
Superstition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superstition
Wikipedia
Superstition is the belief in supernatural causality—that one event causes another without any natural process linking the two events—such as astrology, religion, omens, witchcraft, prophecies, etc., that contradicts natural science.
The Tree of Life of the Kabbalah is a mirror image of the body. It teaches the body is the temple.
The main reason I am asking about this is to find out if those other type of people Jesus also rewards, go to this spiritual realm too. Because if they do, this is very similar to what other traditions consider to be true, and then accounts for my original question relative to just going to Heaven or Hell.
originally posted by: bb23108
a reply to: WarminIndy
Yes this helps. Thank you.
(My parentheticals are what my view is of each realm you brought up, and also has a basis in certain traditions.)
So you are saying that everyone when they die goes to a spiritual realm (agreed), some get sent to Hell (this could be a real dark bardo in the spirit realm or even reincarnation on Earth, which is considered a hell by many), and others are chosen for the Kingdom of Heaven (agreed if they are truly and totally prepared in heart, mind, body, and spirit).
So then there are at least two levels in the spirit realm in Christianity - those headed for the Kingdom of Heaven, and the others who are simply rewarded by Jesus for their good works, etc. Hell is also a spirit realm in most traditions - but a terribly dark one.
So it is not just Heaven or Hell - there is a middle ground even in Christianity, like many of the religions with reincarnation, in which their karma dictates their "rewards".
Is this a proper understanding of what you said (not including my parentheticals, of course) - at least in general terms?
originally posted by: WarminIndy
Yes, I would have to say there is a middle ground. But again, it depends on the particular denomination.
Reincarnation is the one thing that has not been part of Christian teaching. Resurrection has always been taught.
originally posted by: WarminIndy
What you call reincarnation, or transmigration of the soul, is not something we can say, because we believe that each person has their own soul that is individual to them. That the body and soul were created to be for that individual.
Either this ascent is esoteric or it generates a lot of questions! I understand that people believe they are going to physically ascend, so it requires a lot of vague explanations to get beyond the sheer physical impossibility of this. Billions of bodies going into the skies? Am I missing something here?
Yes, but who assigned the parts of the body to those things? That is called metaphysics.