Can anyone name a religion that DOESNT believe in reincarnation?

originally posted by: bb23108

originally posted by: WarminIndy
HAHA, I made it up, that was no discovery.

But you, I will give you permission because you seem to appreciate what I said. But that was called "imagination" and thinking outside of the box.

Oh dear, I guess you didn't know I was kidding. You did mention that you made that up in your post, so I was well aware of that when I posted my silly comment.

However, I did think your Ganesh game was clever.

But I am glad you didn't start a new thread!

I guessed you were kidding, I was counter kidding...

a reply to: WarminIndy
LOL! That's funny.

By the way, did you see the last paragraph of my post on reincarnation, asking about levels of Heaven in Christianity?

originally posted by: bb23108
a reply to: WarminIndy
LOL! That's funny.

By the way, did you see the last paragraph of my post on reincarnation, asking about levels of Heaven in Christianity?

Are there levels of the "Heavenly Abode" in any parts of Christianity? I understand the concept of Purgatory, but for many Christians it appears it is either Heaven or Hell. How could that work - all or none can't be right. What if someone misses the cut-off by just a decimal point? Anyone care to comment on how the subtle planes factor in, if at all, in any of the Christian variants?

Well, we don't know how many levels there are.

The Bible in Hebrew tends to use one word for heaven (Shamayim), like only one word for earth (eretz).

The word firmament usually means the atmosphere. But there are many variants in Christianity. Some people believe that heaven is the clouds and their loved ones are playing the harps with the angels. I don't know where that idea came from, because it seems to be in a lot of Medieval and Renaissance art. You know, those baby cherubs in the clouds?

But Paul mentioned that he knew a man that went to the third heaven, but came back uttering things not lawful to utter. So we don't really know what is there.

There was a tv show called 7th Heaven, and some people believe that the seventh heaven is a place of perfection, so the idiom has become for any situation that is perceived as perfect.

The Bible says also that Elijah, Enoch and Jesus were all taken up into the clouds. The Bible says that God rides on the clouds. That is how they perceived God. Leonardo da Vinci perceived God as riding on the brain. That is in his famous painting of God and Adam touching fingers, that is a brain that God is on. Maybe da Vinci was an esoteric gnostic?

The Bible also says that Isaiah saw the Lord on His throne, high and lifted up. Ezekiel saw the wheel within a wheel, in the heavens. The Bible says that the New Jerusalem came down out of heaven, adorned like a bride.

Going by what I think, and there are many variants, I believe that there must be three levels of heaven at least. And when we say level might not be what the ancient writers meant in context. Purgatory began in Judaism, but carried over to Catholics. I don't know about that, maybe there could be. But the one thing I have always rejected and the Pope finally annulled was Limbo. The old belief was that unbaptized babies went to Limbo instead of going to God.

I would not say that there could be decimal measurements. As the Bible seems to indicate, heaven is not subject to time, therefore even that measurement is not used. The Bible also says heaven and earth shall pass away, but God's word will never pass. That could mean only the immediate atmosphere. But a new heaven and a new earth will come.

I don't know exactly what that new heaven means, maybe it is that atmosphere.

But my personal belief is that it is where God is. And Jesus called it Abraham's Bosom. I asked my Jewish friend about that, she said to me "Who wouldn't want to go where their loved ones are at". So it is a place of reconciliation of God and man, and the family of man. I also think that it is a different place that is just beyond the physical plane, it is a spiritual plane, just as Jesus said "the kingdom of God is at hand". And Paul also said the same thing.

27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

If God is not far from every one of us and is as close as we can touch, the the spiritual realm is just beyond the physical.

That's how I think. I really can't speak for all variants, but there are many and a lot of it is cultural understanding.

a reply to: WarminIndy
That is very interesting. Thank you.

I also think that it is a different place that is just beyond the physical plane, it is a spiritual plane, just as Jesus said "the kingdom of God is at hand".

This certainly is corroborated by Eastern traditions. What Jesus said about "the Kingdom of God is at hand" also sounds like he is saying that one can realize what and where Heaven is before dying - which is what is true in esotericism, and how I view his granting of spiritual rebirth to his most devoted followers.

How do Christians view the Judgment process? What I was getting at when I said missing by a decimal point, was how can one either make it to paradise or you go to hell? That just sounds like there could be an uprising of this Judgment process being unjust! Seriously, this seems wrong, so how is this reconciled in the Christian view(s)?

Why I wrote about the reincarnation process a page ago, was that reincarnation accounts for endless variations in people's karmic "accumulation" (sins), and so is readily reconciled with the question I just asked. It is not just " Heaven or Go To Hell!".

Again, reincarnation makes much more sense to me in this regard.

originally posted by: bb23108
a reply to: WarminIndy
That is very interesting. Thank you.

If reincarnation makes sense to you as a way of explanation, then certainly it is not up to me to change your understanding, I can only answer from the position on my side of the fence.

The judgment process for us, when we are judged, it will be at the Judgment Seat of Christ, also known as the Great White Throne Judgment. In that moment, all people will be judged according to their works. Now this is rejected by some Christian churches that some teach that Christian believers have grace and therefore are not subject to wrath or judgment. They use the verse "hath not appointed unto wrath".

Some Christian churches teach that once you become a Christian believer, that you have been born again, then you are sealed unto the day of Redemption. This is usually found in Baptist teaching.

Some Christians do not believe they will be judged at all for anything because they now have grace, which they use the definition "unmerited favor" and reject all other definitions of grace.

You are really making me work hard to explain all the different Christian denominational teaching. Perhaps you should ask me about my own particular denomination views...lol.

We also believe that our names must be written in the Lamb's Book of Life, but since we don't know who is in the book, we really can't then say who is going to hell or heaven. Those who believe in predestination, which again are usually Baptists, believe that regardless of what you do or who you are, if you are predestined, then you are going to go to heaven. So John Calvin created a new doctrine with the acronym TULIP. I am not Baptist, not a Calvinist, I am an Arminiast, and so will be called a heretic by any Calvinist reading this thread.

I cannot answer your question without mentioning the other denominations, and you have to remember, Christian schools of thought are much like the many tantric schools in Hinduism, each church denomination teaches a particular doctrinal view, so while one may believe in one thing, another might believe something else.

I can only now give you what I believe and what I have been taught. I have been taught that the judgment begins on earth, that on the day Jesus returns, the angels are going to be sent throughout all the earth to gather His believers. Those that died first are going to come out of their graves first, physically and their bodies will be changed, then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the air, also to be changed. Meaning that our corruptible bodies will now become incorruptible.

Then Jesus will take on the task of separating the sheep from the goats, meaning that the sheep go on the right, the goats on the left. We will be asked about our lives, in order to give an account for, and this is where many Christians try to insert the doctrine of grace in, because they don't want to be judged. We are asked what we did in this life and if we believed. Then many who cried Lord, Lord will not make it in, because even though they claimed to be believers were not kind to others and mistreated others. So just being a believer is not enough, you have to show your faith by your works. Which is another doctrine that some other Christians might call me a heretic about.

The Great White Throne Judgment is that moment of accounting and separating the sheep from the goats. Remember, Jesus said "My sheep know my voice, none other will they follow". So the sheep are those who not only believed, but followed and kept the commandments of Christ. But the wicked will be cast into outer darkness, even if they may have been a believer, because they did cruel and wicked things to other people.

Paradise, I personally believe that as Jesus taught about Abraham's Bosom, the Jews will go there. They are still under the covenant with God, that has never been taken away from them. So they go there.

The other good people who were not believers, maybe because they didn't know, then there is a place for them also. God does reward for good works. God does remember good works. I am not going to say who goes to hell, because I am not the judge, there is only one Great Judge that judges our hearts and our works.

Some Christians will also call me a heretic for saying that some go to heaven without knowing Jesus. He did say "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but by me and if he try to go up any other way, he is the same as a thief and a robber". But remember that Jesus also went into paradise and preached to those who were held there. Those who chose, came out.

I will say this, those who believe in Jesus will be taken to the Father, where Jesus is at. There may very well be places of paradise, already He did say that Lazarus was in paradise. The thief on the cross beside Him, He said "This day shalt thou be with Me in paradise". That man was most likely Jewish, so He understood that.

I can only say that God remembers the good, that if a person turns away from wickedness, it won't be remembered against him. I will go to be with Jesus, in the place where Jesus is. But all people will go before God, that is what I believe.

a reply to: bb23108
You should never have mentioned a while back that you are a writer - I may have stopped asking you these questions!

I do very much appreciate your responses - and your writing skills.

I feel sorry for goats - they always get such a bad rap. Also, I cannot figure out how Jesus can judge the billions in terms of their being a sheep or a goat. That is going to take a really long time, especially for the more talkative types. I mean, do the math. You could be in line forever! I can see why this process was "automated" by the spiritual laws of karma and reincarnation in most traditions a very long time ago. Poor Jesus!

Okay, all kidding aside, you still did not answer my question about how the judgment can be just Paradise forever or Hell forever. This is not the same Jesus I understand from his teachings. How could it be so black and white?

Now I do understand statements like it is only through Jesus that Christians may enter the Kingdom of God - because of what Jesus represents esoterically in terms of his relationship to Christians and to the Light Above. So yes, one will not go into that Kingdom of Unity, Love, and egolessness, in a state of sin (or karma). However, this is not how you describe the judgment process.

Also, I do appreciate your describing various Christian branches of thought and belief, but just telling me yours is fine - unless of course there is a branch of Christianity where my question is answered in a different way than the ALL or NOTHING manner - i.e., Heaven or Hell. Period.

Thanks again - it is obvious that you are very committed to your understanding of your religion. Very commendable.

a reply to: bb23108

Oh my goodness, I was running out of space, time and energy....

OK, here is why. When Jesus comes back, the angel with the trumpet will sound and proclaim that time is now ended. As we know that the spiritual realm has no time measurements that we know of.

Revelation 10:6 And swore by him that lives for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

We believe that time as as a measurement is given to man while here on earth. We live our lives according to time, everything functions by time measurements. The sun and moon were given as measurements of time.

Even Pagans believe this, the movement of the sun and moon is for time measurement.

But the spiritual realm, there is no time. Jesus is Lord over all, including time.

So eternal means there are no time constraints. Jesus knew the spiritual and the natural, He understood because He was in Heaven before He became man on earth. He sat at the right hand of God and is now at the right hand of God. He is the Son, eternally. This is what we believe is at the end. As Jesus taught, the end of days.

Jesus taught (and I think you used this verse)

1And he said to them, Truly I say to you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

When He said that, there were some who were indeed killed, but Peter was there on the Day of Pentecost, when Jesus had told them "Tarry in Jerusalem until you be endued with power from on High". That was when the Holy Ghost came as Comforter and ended the previous requirements of obligation to the law of Moses, because the sacrifice was accepted. We believe that Jesus offered Himself as the sacrifice.

As the Bible says God answers by fire. As God answered Elijah by fire, as God answered Solomon's prayer by smoke, as God led the children of Israel by a pillars of smoke a fire, He also answered the disciples in the upper room, by smoke and "As" cloven tongues of fire. That day on Pentecost was the kingdom of God coming with power.

That is why heaven and hell will be forever, because time will end.

Mark 9:38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in your name, and he follows not us: and we forbade him, because he follows not us. 39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. 40 For he that is not against us is on our part. 41 For whoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because you belong to Christ, truly I say to you, he shall not lose his reward. 42 And whoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. 43 And if your hand offend you, cut it off: it is better for you to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44Where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if your foot offend you, cut it off: it is better for you to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 Where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched. 47 And if your eye offend you, pluck it out: it is better for you to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48 Where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched.

In what Jesus said, is like I said I believe, that doing good is rewarded. Jesus even tells the disciples that even if one does not follow Him, that person will still be rewarded for doing the things Jesus taught. Akragon and I might disagree on things doctrinally, but I would have to say that Akragon has the same right and will be rewarded.

Jesus said that even if they don't follow Him, there still will be a reward for their goodness and their kindness. The doctrine of eternal comes from the fact that in the spiritual realm, there are no time constraints.

a reply to: WarminIndy
Okay, thanks for the effort but you personally make it sound like it is not all or none (Absolute Paradise or Absolute Hell) so this implies there are "levels" to the afterlife in the spirit realm - just like there are in other traditions that assume reincarnation is the case.

However, it always comes across in the current doctrines of Christianity that it is ALL or NONE - Heaven or Hell - never anything about levels of Heaven, etc., which prompts questions like mine - how can that possibly be right? Jesus is compassionate and loving - not an "all or none" type of dictator.

So why doesn't Christianity speak to these "levels" of Heaven rather than just the Heaven or Hell scenario? Or are these implied "levels" just your personal belief? Or?

Take you time answering if you want - I am out of time for several hours too. Have a good one.

originally posted by: bb23108
a reply to: WarminIndy
Okay, thanks for the effort but you personally make it sound like it is not all or none (Absolute Paradise or Absolute Hell) so this implies there are "levels" to the afterlife in the spirit realm - just like there are in other traditions that assume reincarnation is the case.

However, it always comes across in Christianity that it is ALL or NONE - Heaven or Hell - never anything about levels of Heaven, etc., which prompts questions like mine - how can that possibly be right? Jesus is compassionate and loving - not an all or none dictator.

So why doesn't Christianity speak to these "levels" of Heaven rather than just the Heaven or Hell scenario? Or are these implied "levels" just your personal belief?

Take you time answering if you want - I am out of time for several hours too. Have a good one.

This is how I was taught growing up.

It is because of denominational doctrines and creeds. Theological schools and seminaries tend to be sectarian. That means that while they share the core fundamental beliefs, those things that are harder to answer, they come to a theological agreement within their own separate creeds and doctrines for their own denominations.

When you ask a Christian, you should first get them to say their denomination, because some of their doctrines are not going to be the same as another Christian. That is why I kept saying that if some other Christians were reading my posts, they would call me heretic.

You have a good day

a reply to: WarminIndy
So does this mean you personally believe that there are "levels" in the spirit realm (Heaven)?

Jesus certainly implied that, when he spoke about various types receiving rewards. But of course, he understood the laws of karma and reincarnation, so that figures (at least in my view).

originally posted by: bb23108
a reply to: WarminIndy
So does this mean you personally believe that there are "levels" in the spirit realm (Heaven)?

Jesus certainly implied that, when he spoke about various types receiving rewards. But of course, he understood the laws of karma and reincarnation, so that figures (at least in my view).

Well, I believe Heaven to be real. So the levels of Heaven, I would not think of them as merely "planes of consciousness" or "levels of ascendency".

The spiritual realm isn't only Heaven, but we don't really know the whole of the spiritual realm, but to me it is real and I have experienced in my life the reality of that.

I believe it is more real than I am. I don't understand about different planes. Levels to me are like sections.

a reply to: WarminIndy

I don't understand why people believe that Solomon had a magic ring that he controlled demons with. Then they misconstrue his very name. I heard that people say it is Sol Om On, tying together three different languages into the Anglicized Solomon. The name in Hebrew is Sholomo, some Jewish people today say Shleimi, and it means peace.

Then they misconstrue his very name.

Oh, the irony...

The word "light" in Latin is SOL. In Vedic it is OM. In ancient Egyptian it is ON.

*SOLOMON*

Esoteric truth.

Btw, Solomon was thought to be David's father. If you are claiming that Solomon was just a word (as I am) than the Davidic bloodline dissolves...

If the Davidic bloodline dissolves then what happens to Jesus and Mohammed...?

That's the problem with English, anything can be mistranslated or misconstrued. I can do that and then "prove" Ganeesh was really the Indian god they claim...

Oh the irony.

"That's the problem with English, anything can be mistranslated or misconstrued. I can do that and then "prove" JESUS was really the Christian god they claim...

Btw, there is no such thing as "Indian God". It is either Vedic or Hindu, etc. I take it you live in the Southern States?

I honestly don't care what the problem is. My understanding and APPLICATION of scripture has given me a great life experiences to date. It makes no difference to me what you believe. I just like entertaining myself with dogmatic fundamentalist that have nothing to show for it. I get it, you don't believe in reincarnation. Cool. No worries.

J.K. Rowling is an esoterist?

I have no time for deliberate ignorance or mental ping-pong. In fact, I have no time for people much older than me that have nothing to show for their beliefs. I have no respect for daily commuters.

Yes, she understood the power of faith and imagination.

a reply to: bb23108

Really, how does this make any sense what you said: "The dead will arise, physically, to heaven"?

The biblical understanding of death should not be esoteric. When reading the NT one should be aware of the fact that much of the understanding of the authors were of rabbinic teachings. You must take into consideration that these authors of the NT were in a transformation period from the rabbinic doctrines to the doctrine of Jesus. Even in the death of Lazarus the people did not understand death. Jesus had to explain and then demonstrate to them exactly what death was to the righteous.

Many biblical teachers and scholars do not agree as to the biblical death. Some believe that you become unconscious and sleep while others believe that you are fully conscious and do not sleep. Jesus teaches that there is a hell where conscious spirits of dead souls are contained. He also teaches us that the justified spirit will pass from death to immediate life in total consciousness. An example of this is the penitent thief (Dismas) who died beside Jesus. Both Dismas and Jesus ascended into the New Jerusalem which is paradise in the third heaven that very day they both died.

Paul may confuse some as he writes --- 1Thessaloinians 4:16-17
(16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Now before you make your decision, understand this one very important thing to consider. Paul wrote this letter well over forty years before Jesus gave His Revelation to John. Paul wrote his letter that we have at about 52 CE. John received the Revelation of two resurrections about 96 CE. Paul was well versed in rabbinic tradition but had no knowledge of two separate resurrections of 1,000 years between the two resurrections. Actually no one had that Revelation till it was given to John.

By this it is very clear that Paul was taught that an end would come to humanity. He was also taught that all spirits of the dead souls were contained in the seven compartments of Sheol. Jesus even taught this in His ministry. When Paul wrote this letter to the Thessalonians he believed that the righteous and unrighteous both were in the compartments of Sheol. He was unaware that the justified spirits were removed from Sheol after the Lord Jesus died and that these justified spirits had received their resurrection and were residing in New Jerusalem in the third heaven. In other words the justified spirits in Sheol are now celestial spirits with a new celestial body. Paul had no way of knowing this because it was not revealed at this time to anyone. Paul is aware of only one gathering at the end time.

This is why Paul wrote that the dead in Christ shall rise first meaning that the righteous spirits in Sheol will be taken from Sheol first and then we which are alive will also be gathered for a judgment. Why did Paul assume this? Because Paul knew that while Jesus was alive that He taught them that all spirits of the Justified will be in Abraham's Bosom. No one dreamed that the kingdom of heaven would be the new celestial city of Jerusalem or that the justified spirits were released from this prison of Sheol.

So knowing that the justified spirits were in Sheol Paul knew that they would be taken from Sheol before the world was destroyed. And actually they were. The captives were released from captivity just as scripture tells us. But now you see how this differs from a reincarnation of the dead. The flesh, bone and blood will never be restored and stand reunited with the spirit in judgment. A reincarnated soul is not Christian teaching.

. In order to understand this you must consider all scripture pertaining to what is actually meant by this. The Revelation of Jesus to John declares "and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

originally posted by: Involutionist
a reply to: WarminIndy

J.K. Rowling is an esoterist?

I stopped reading after that. I have no time for deliberate ignorance or mental ping-pong. In fact, I have no time for people much older than me that have nothing to show for their beliefs. I have no respect for daily commuters.

Hmm, you know, I have never read a Harry Potter book, so I don't know all the fascination with it.

But you know what, you keep holding onto that pop culture magic, you just might be cool one day.

And you know what, I have plenty of time. I, unfortunately, have been less blessed to be that daily commuter. If you don't like it, then you don't have to converse.

What have you offered than just a bunch of pop culture, fluffy bunny, sparkle vampire twilight.

a reply to: WarminIndy

Lady. I don't work. And still young.

I will forever hold on to that magic. I'm greedy like that...

originally posted by: Involutionist

J.K. Rowling is an esoterist?

I have no time for deliberate ignorance or mental ping-pong. In fact, I have no time for people much older than me that have nothing to show for their beliefs. I have no respect for daily commuters.

Yes, she understood the power of faith and imagination.

WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG.....

Let me point back to you in a little less aggressive manner.

SOLOMON is NOT NEVER EVER CANNOT HAS NEVER BEEN NEVER WILL BE Sol Om On....

His name was Scholomo a COMMON HEBREW NAME. ANGLICIZED TO SOLOMON, which means PEACE, dude.

Scholomo is so common, in Yiddishe it is Schleimi, COMMON name. So please, get over your Jordan Maxwell/Madame BLAHvatsky English corruption of names they chose to ignore as HEBREW and not English.

How was that for aggressive?

Wasn't so pleasant, now was it? You listened to bull crap about a fake ring that you think if you can just get the meaning of, you might just control demons with it also. So that's why you are interested in MEDIEVAL Jewish Kabbalha. NOT ancient, only MEDIEVAL.

Learn history, learn Hebrew and by all means, learn something other than Jordan Maxwell.

originally posted by: Involutionist
a reply to: WarminIndy

Lady. I don't work. And still young.

I will forever hold on to that magic. I'm greedy like that...

Then maybe you should find a job.

Now back on topic.

a reply to: WarminIndy

The Qabala and the Sephiroth are derived from the Book of Enoch, specifically, "The Keys and the Key makers" part. It's ancient, not medieval. The Book of Enoch was found with Dead Sea Scrolls. It designates the positions of the "gates" along with the names, jobs and respective positions of various "angles".

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: WarminIndy

The Qabala and the Sephiroth are derived from the Book of Enoch, specifically, "The Keys and the Key makers" part. It's ancient, not medieval. The Book of Enoch was found with Dead Sea Scrolls. It designates the positions of the "gates" along with the names, jobs and respective positions of various "angles".

Yes, perhaps, but the Sephirot was designed by Medieval Jews, they wanted to learn the secret name of God so they could say it over the golem, for the golem to come to life.

Practical Kabbalah.

Kabbalah Golem

History of the golem

It has nothing to do with Solomon's ring, that is a separate legend made by the Freemasons to explain the story of Hiram Abiff and why Jews and blacks should have their own separate lodges and Albert Pike writing the Doctrines and Dogmas of the Freemasons, explain why enslaving other people is the natural law. Solomon's ring to them was the right of whites to have blacks as slaves. Read the book, it has nothing to do with a real ring or even real esoteric teaching.

But the Medieval Kabbalah was to raise the golem. The Sephirot is nothing more than just some guy's idea of giving attributes to random things. Nothing more.

a reply to: WarminIndy

But the Medieval Kabbalah was to raise the golem. The Sephirot is nothing more than just some guy's idea of giving attributes to random things. Nothing more.

Some guy? You mean Enoch? Qabala, which is derived from the Book of Enoch, is much, much more than what you suggest, and you'd know that if you'd studied it instead of looking to discredit it.