Metaphysica Music Theory

a reply to: ignorant_ape

Good for you.
Expect an email from a mod soon, congratulating you for contributing to the quality of the site for that post.

a reply to: Astyanax

Again, don't mean to come off like a jerk here. Thank you for your replies as well.

I have a night off from the project, but not really. I'm currently taking a look at an album of African tribal music.

Every single track out of like 30 is registering G# and F#, in A432Hz.
Some have flutes, some don't. Some have vocals/chanting, some don't.
Many have thumb-piano.
Some are only percussion, and they STILL register ONLY G# and F# A432, with C# and other "relevant" overtones - again, these are relevant in the "metaphysical" sense, and since you don't believe in that, I am speaking to those who do, as in the entire continent of Africa, apparently, unless it's just an amazing coincidence.

Next I'll take a look at African Voodoo drumming, and Yoruba music.
Then these will be compared with Native American drumming, chanting and flutes, ancient Egyptian flutes and etc. I already know that Native American flutes are A432, and Ancient Egyptian ones are A441 Kings Chamber-tuned, but why not check the microtonal scales out?

I really don't care if some of you get it, believe in it, or not. Some here do, and I am here on this earth to research, share, and heal myself while I'm at it, so if you think I would ever back down in one of my threads and stop doing any of that, you and anyone else thinking so are gravely mistaken.

If you don't think pitch, tempo, and intent matter, go listen to death metal and tell us how you feel.
Those of us who don't subject ourselves to sonic torture do know the difference in our mental health, and those who don't get it, don't. It's like drugs or alcohol - because the brainwave peaks induced are EXACTLY the same as if you drink or take drugs, and THAT is really, really old physics as well.

Do you like a strobelight pulsing in your face? No? Why not?
I know why not. I think you do too.

a reply to: KAOStheory

So here's a sneak preview of results for you all, since you want to talk about Pitch Standards.
Every recording of tribal African music I can find somehow manages to tune to A432Hz G# and F#, except one region - Egypt, which is A441, Kings chamber resonance. And not a damn one of them own an electronic tuner to make sure they are "in tune with the rest of the world" lol.

"The rest of the wordl" Astynax refers to, is really basically a handful of people - pretty much centered in Hollywood, London, and DC, so, yea, no thanks to that, or ANY of those people's "standards".

You wanna roll with that, go ahead. It's not the Nazis. It's not good though either, so good luck with that.
I mean. it's obviously working out right.? People who listen to pop music on the radio have the best intentions and health, yea? Lovin' their brother and all that, yea? Driving with respect to others, right? Evolving and uplifting their communities, right? Yea obviously. Keep listening to the radio in your car, and when the iPod you bought your kid let's Rhianna ruin your 10-yr old's brain, good luck with that.

Maybe I'm wrong. You wanna bet on it and show me your 10-year old's EEG after listening to some 30 year old tell them how they wanna do them all day? No?
That's probably too much to ask, sorry. I assumed people here were talking about this stuff because they actually did things like that, or even cared. Oops, my bad. Time to find another forum I think.

originally posted by: KAOStheory

SkunkApe - Awesome, I'd love to hear it! Any links?

I put a few things on Soundcloud.
It is a little adventurous harmonically, but still falls within my theory that the pentatonic scale is a solid skeleton to hang all manner of jazzy meat on.
www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread1064615/pg1
I'm not sure how to post it as a direct link. Sorry about the copy and paste hassle.

a reply to: skunkape23
Thanks! No worries, I have opposable thumbs lol. I found it.
Will fave you once my slow interwebs wakes up and lets me. Likin the titles so far lol.

a reply to: Astyanax
That's very interesting. Cymatics, a branch of physics, isn't exactly cutting-edge science these days, so I imagine you mean somethind else — something like what we saw in bluemooone2's video, perhaps? Using cymatic effects to create audio-visual art or entertainment? I imagine it would be quite difficult to pull off effectively, like pyrotechnics and stage magic.


I do realize that even that video is in a way just stage magic like triggering mostly and liquid effects from the sound waves (at least I think so) but let me ask you something serious here, because you do know a lot about these things.
If say 1000 years from now, if all these fields of research such as the metaphysical aspects and Cymatics of sound or of energy wave forms really advance too their full potential, do you think that such things as DNA awakening (perhaps) and or levitation even of the body could be possible?

a reply to: bluemooone2

The alleged connection between pyrotechnics, stage magic, and cymatics is probably the most humorous part of this entire thread so far. I don't think 3 things could be further apart in the world of physics.

They are obviously of destruction, illusion, and creation, respectively, and this is why anyone who doesn't even understand these basic factors has no business commenting on a thread with the word "metaphysical" in th OP title.

I guess it's better than preaching to the converted lol.

a reply to: KAOStheory

Hi, KAOStheory. Quite an informative series of posts.

I'm currently taking a look at an album of African tribal music... Every single track out of like 30 is registering G# and F#, in A432Hz.

That's very interesting. Can I ask how you establish this? It seems to me that, in order to do it, you would have to

1. identify the keynote
   
2. determine its frequency
   
3. assign it a chromatic value (C, F#, etc) based, presumably, on that frequency
   
4. determine the frequency of A in the chosen key based on the frequency of the keynote.

I would like to know, in a general way, how you go about this. I am particularly interested in your procedure in Step 3.

You could read the official US War Department Manual on physics to read your "proof" of marching bands and most symphony orchestras tuning high, or ask some members of one, as I did. The same manual will tell you that C256 is proper scientific pitch.

Thanks again. Would it be one of the publications below, or some other publication?

• TM 1-233 Elementary Physics For Pilot Trainees (22 April 1942)
  
• TM 1-233 Elementary Physics for Pilot Trainees (30 December 1943)
  
• TM 1-750 Applied Physics for Airplane Mechanics (14 September 1943)

Lists of War Department publications can be found here and here. Perhaps you could point out the relevant manual if it isn't one of the above. As I'm sure you're aware from your own experience as a researcher, the correct way to cite a source is Author/Title/Year/Place/Publisher, e.g. 'Ghosh, A., River of Smoke, 2002, London, John Murray', sometimes followed by a page number. That way, other people can actually find your source, and see if it bears out your claims. Simply saying 'the War Department manual on physics' suggests that you don't wish to have your claims examined and verified — though I'm sure this is not the case.

You made a specific claim: military bands tune to 444Hz. As far as I can tell, you are wrong. Military bands did tune high; how high, in various instances, is given here (an old and well-established source), but none is stated as tuning to A=440.

I am also concerned about your claims re. ragas, Native American flutes, etc. I am South Asian, and as far as know there is no special reference frequency used by Indian musicians. I think you need to substantiate this claim. I recognize that it would be very difficult, but perhaps you have published (or unpublished) material we can look at? It doesn't have to be peer-reviewed, so long as you describe your experimental design and methodology closely. We can then discuss your claims in the light of the data. If you prefer not to do this, of course, then some of us will draw the conclusion that the claims are groundless.

Finally, a word about this:

"The rest of the wordl" Astynax refers to, is really basically a handful of people - pretty much centered in Hollywood, London, and DC, so, yea, no thanks to that, or ANY of those people's "standards".

I think you are wrong. As you may or may not know, I am South Asian. Everyone in my country tunes to A=440Hz and has done so for as long as I can remember, whether they're playing traditional ethnic musics of one kind or the other or whether they're playing Western classical. That is because pianos are tuned to A=440Hz and have been for decades, and the cheap electronic keyboards that are used in all kinds of music, Western and Eastern alike, are also tuned to A=440. As far as I know (and I am well travelled), the same is true all over the world.

if you think I would ever back down in one of my threads... you and anyone else thinking so are gravely mistaken

Well that's a pity. It's tantamount to never admitting you are wrong. Whatever happened to being open-minded?

a reply to: bluemooone2

If say 1000 years from now, if all these fields of research such as the metaphysical aspects and Cymatics of sound or of energy wave forms really advance too their full potential, do you think that such things as DNA awakening (perhaps) and or levitation even of the body could be possible?

No, I do not. I think such hopes will have long been laid to rest by then.

a reply to: Astyanax

Fair enough And thanks for the reply

a reply to: KAOStheory

I think that we might actually agree on this although I am stumbling over the words to say what I really mean here (my bad) and lack the specific knowledge. Interesting thread here though for sure.

a reply to: Astyanax

That's exactly the procedure.
The PitchLab app not only lets you set the A frequency, but temperaments as well. And I use two of them at once, one showing the main frequency, one showing ALL frequencies and overtones, film it, then study the videos. Sometimes I do it again with two other spectrographs, especially if it's a complex piece of music.

War Dept Education Manual EM402, Physics, Course 2, Heat, Sound, and Light Textbook, Charles E. DUll, 1943
I found it for $5 online.

I know a woman who bought a beautiful harmonium in India to play in her Kirtan band here in Chicago. Had the reeds filed in New York by a guitar shop because those silly Hindus built it "out-of-tune." Ruined. So, there's some evidence for you on the Ragas for starters. Again, just try to play one of those cheap keyboards you mentioned along with a Ravi Shankar album, or again, just hold up a pitch app to a speaker. It always seems so much to ask of people, "how do you know this," over and over - my question is, "how do you not?" And again - free app. 30 seconds to instal, a lifetime of answering your own questions about pitch! I really don't know how else you would expect one to "substantiate the claim" for you. I'm not going to video document me setting the pitch to A432, hold it to the speaker to show you, etc - ANY of you can do this yourselves. If YOU chose not to, just like choosing not to read the books containing info not found online, etc., that leaves YOU in the dark on the subjects, not me. It's true that THESE days, some ragas are played in A440 - D, only to conform to the Western standard. You do know that the sitar is tuned to C# right? Why C#, not C? Because Om, that's why. Ask someone who plays one. Message someone on their youtube account or something.

I'm not going to post Rosicrucian charts that are not for the public, I found them, so can anyone. Well, maybe not. You have to actually look a little, and it seems most people just aren't willing. People come on here all day in the "Secret Societies" forum, looking for secrets they could find themselves, if they spent maybe 5 extra minutes looking online, or 10 in a library or bookstore, or an hour in an actual lodge or office of a member.

As far as Native American flutes, well, I actually know Native American Shamen with flutes, and they are A432 lol. I don't know what else you want me to say about that. I also personally know Tibetan Monks, they chant in C# in A432 because it's Om, I've sat right there and felt it, recorded it, watched the app on my phone, asked them about it afterwords, while we played basketball in a pool. A surprisingly aggressive game, no less.

The A432 folks online make stupid claims they can't back up, I understand this. They say Egyptian flutes and Greek stringed instruments were A432. I really don't see how they could determine that about a stringed instrument, and the Egyptian flutes most certainly are NOT A432. There was only one proper study done on Egyptian flutes, and one was A441, I forget the other two, slightly sharp or flat, but not much. I have that chart somewhere too. Who knows what time could have done to these instruments. Well, actually, I do, it could change their pitch lol. Try burying a guitar in your backyard for a year and see how it sounds let alone after thousands of years.

As far as backing down in my threads goes, again, to repeat myself, again, I've stated before that I was wrong on here. Good luck finding anyone else who has. That's not what I meant. What I meant was, people can try to take my posts off-topic, but it doesn't change the OP. It's already there, people read it, starred and flagged it, got the info they needed, and moved on. They don't care about 6 pages of off-topic back and forth, and it won't stop me from posting valuable info here. I honestly doubt that you were trying to "derail" the thread, but many here do and it started to seem that way on this thread. My mistake.

In your reply to bluemoone2, well, I'm still waiting for one of these "solfeggio" people to explain exactly what "DNA activation," or "awakening," or whatever they want to call it, actually means. My best friend is a microbiologist, and he can confirm these claims are laughable. DNA repairs itself, period. Horowitz got his YouTube account deleted for ethics violations, so I expect we won't be seeing as many of these silly statements about DNA in the future. From what I understand, the AMA does not smile on unsubstantiated medical claims. People go to prison for that in this country. In the early 90's, the New Agers all got excited about "DNA activation" and such, because they didn't have Google yet to tell them how stupid that actually sounds.

As far as levitation, scientists have been levitating tiny objects with high frequencies in labs, and anyone with half a brain cell should be able to understand that if this is possible, then you could also levitate a large object with a lower frequency. They won't do it, as they need their funding, but I don't see how anyone could think using sound for levitation will only work with a piece of styrofoam.

I also meant to ask, in regards to Southeast Asia, and your other travels, are you a musician? And have you played music with people in you travels? I'd be interested in what you have learned from that as well. And as far as keyboards go, I have a Yamaha that defaults to +50 cents when you turn it on, no idea why, but if someone weren't really up on pitch, they would assume it's "normal" and tune the rest of the band to it. I say that because it's from the 80's, and the electric tuner wasn't even invented til around then. I remember my band in high-school NOT being able to use certain synth sounds in the keyboard because they were pitched differently, and the whole band would have had to retune for that song.

a reply to: bluemooone2

No I understand where you are coming from. Nothing wrong with asking questions. I have often come on here asking a question I could have googled - because I trust the people here's opinions more than that! Conversation and sharing information is the whole point here.

a reply to: KAOStheory
Astyanax:
I asked "are you a musician" - i know you are, what i meant to ask was, have your world travels been AS a musician, on tour, or playing with other musicians in those regions?

also curious, what instruments? can we find any of your music online?

a reply to: KAOStheory

Sorry about the delay. Real-world stuff to do.

That's exactly the procedure.
The PitchLab app not only lets you set the A frequency, but temperaments as well. And I use two of them at once, one showing the main frequency, one showing ALL frequencies and overtones, film it, then study the videos. Sometimes I do it again with two other spectrographs, especially if it's a complex piece of music.

I've had PitchLab on my phone for about six months, I think. I know how to reset the reference frequency but I'm not sure what you mean by setting it show all frequencies and overtones. Doesn't it, like, do that anyway?

My concern is still with Step 3. How do you synchronize the video with the audio? So as to know which waveform in your film syncs with which note? Does it depend on your own reaction time in any way? And why not just use something like ProTools?

War Dept Education Manual EM402, Physics, Course 2, Heat, Sound, and Light Textbook, Charles E. DUll, 1943
I found it for $5 online.

Fair enough, I'll take your word for it. But that about military bands tuning to 444Hz is still wrong.

As far as levitation, scientists have been levitating tiny objects with high frequencies in labs, and anyone with half a brain cell should be able to understand that if this is possible, then you could also levitate a large object with a lower frequency.

You certainly could. You would have to create acoustic pressure waves that carried enough energy to do the necessary work. Let's take a look at that.

(People who don't like arithmetic or metric units can skip the bullet points and come back in farther down).

• If the object was, say, a cube of side 10cm, of the same density as water, it would weigh 1kg (about 2.2lb).
  
  
• To levitate it, you would have to overcome the force of gravity and impart a modest acceleration to it. Let's say an acceleration of one-tenth of a millimetre per second — a snail would probably get off to a faster start.
  
  
• Acceleration due to gravity is 9.806m/sec^2, so to accelerate our cube by .0001m/sec^2 in the opposite direction, we have to exert a force of 9.8061N (newtons).
  
  
• Since the area of the lower surface of the cube is 0.01m^2, that gives us a force per unit area — pressure, in other words, of 980.61N/m^2, or more conveniently, 980.61Pa (pascals).
  
  
• This is what acoustic engineers call the sound pressure level that would be required to levitate that cube. It can be measured in pascals, as we have just done, but another unit is much more commonly used: the decibel (dB).
  
  
• Here is a calculator for converting Pa to dB. It gives an interesting answer.

How powerful would your source have to be? How many watts?

For those who aren't familiar with dB measurements, here's a useful comparison chart...

*

have you played music with people in you travels?

I'm an amateur, more or less. I may play with local musicians, but I don't try to play the local music. I know my limitations.

To answer the other questions: guitar, voice, a bit of this and that. No, you won't find me making music online.

Interesting conversation. See you around.

originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: KAOStheory

Sorry about the delay. Real-world stuff to do.

No worries, no hurries, same here.

My concern is still with Step 3. How do you synchronize the video with the audio? So as to know which waveform in your film syncs with which note? Does it depend on your own reaction time in any way? And why not just use something like ProTools?

The same way it's done for any tv show or movie - I insert two clicks at the beginning of the original audio file. When I layer the video clips in Sony Vegas with the original audio file, I line them up, then delete the audio tracks from the camera mic on the video clips. I film the apps and waves and put them all into one video, because it enables me to pause and replay the parts back, whether I want to do that now, or in a month, as well as email the mp4s to the clients.

Fair enough, I'll take your word for it. But that about military bands tuning to 444Hz is still wrong.

I thought it was mentioned in the Physics Manual - it may be, but I can't find it. This mention is from "The Pitch Game," Time Magazine, 1971. It doesn't specify what "military pitch," but listing it implies it is NOT A440Hz, and I would bet $100 that it's not lower than A440. The whole point of "The Pitch Game" itself, and the need for an international standard, was the raising of pitch by symphonies desiring a louder tone. Marching bands use horns - the higher the pitch, the easier to play and be loud. No strings, so why wouldn't they tune up a bit?

"Variations and Vibrations. A desperate French commission that included Composers Jacques Halevy, Hector Berlioz and Giacomo Meyerbeer tried to sort things out in 1858 by decreeing that 435 should be the future standard. It did not work. Soon there was French pitch, English pitch, English church pitch, military pitch and virtually as many varia- tions in between as there were vibrations to choose from. In 1939 the British Standard Institution settled on 440 cycles for the A, but this supposedly international standard is widely ignored."

Note that last part there. "Widely ignored." As it should be. In the wrong direction most of the time, but nonetheless.

As far as levitation, scientists have been levitating tiny objects with high frequencies in labs, and anyone with half a brain cell should be able to understand that if this is possible, then you could also levitate a large object with a lower frequency.

You certainly could. You would have to create acoustic pressure waves that carried enough energy to do the necessary work. Let's take a look at that.

Thanks for adding all that! Very well said, and thanks for the link, too.

To answer the other questions: guitar, voice, a bit of this and that. No, you won't find me making music online.

Interesting conversation. See you around.

Cool, I was just curious more than anything. Thanks for all the replies, take care!

Here we are again. So its easy to tell what the fundamental tone of a scale is. If you dont know how you are not a musician. Iys easy to twll what scales are being used as ethnomusicology has already done so almost 100 years ago. So what scale are they using will yell you what the fundamental is.

Your south east asian so you are an expert? There are plenty of things i dont know about European culture even though thats where i come from. C# a little sharp of that is the sacred tone of the earth according to hinduism. Everything in Raga was based off of that. Transcription of course happens with instrument range but C# sharp is the base of both Carnatic and Hindustani classical music. All of the scale tones come from the overtone series and there are 22 notes\shrutis. Each Raga is centered around time of day, mood, season, function. A raga has a specific time and reason to be played. I have lived in India, and studied raga for 25 years. Not everybody tunes to 440. Not even close. Especially in raga. Neither carnatic or hindustani.

In regards to your last comments to me you have a knack for leaving out parts of arguments and changing them..i think there is a name for this in philosophy.

If your such an astute study how do you not understand where the tone of the human body comes from? Is it really the size of the resonate chamber? Can i tune two drums of different size to the same pitch? Yep.

Oh and as far as i know the cymascope was just invented. Prior to it people where using plates to vibrate objects. Not the same at all. Its like saying a backyard telescope and the hubble will give you the same observation.

I think you missed i am not just a luthier but a sound engineer. And while you may have studied theory for two decades i have been recording sound and mixing it. People hit there chests all the time by accident while singing. Strangely the subharmonic thump is all in a relative frequency location. I can set a special narrow high pass filter to get rid of it.

So cyma studies is gradeschool stuff? I think you missed the video topics. Your example of light to sound and sound to light is hardly relevant or even the same topic. Especially considering this was only recently discovered. It was by using the frequency where light and sound overlap and has nothing to do with banging objects together to make things spark.

You seem smart but, i question how in depth your understanding of acoustics are.

Before i had kids i travelled quite a bit in a recording and live sound internship. I have recorded, mixed and scoured over music from several cultures using a form of just intonation. I could explain almost any scales in the world and where they originate from. Its a little different insight then sitting in a class or looking at a textbook. Not better or worse but a close minded scientist which i am sorry is not an insult but rather an observation can not find the truth since they already "know" it.

Do I think a fundemental pitch difference of two cents is a huge change prob not but I certainly wouldnt protest it.

I think what we are argueing here is largely metaphysical. I think Kant already explained what its like to argue metaphysics. Something like the shores of debate of metaphysics are littered with shiprecks."

Did the record industry hook people up to machines to observe responses to music. Yes they did.did they find tones have an effect on the brain, mood, and thought. Yes they did.

a reply to: luthier

So its easy to tell what the fundamental tone of a scale is.

Yes, most of the time it is, but not always.

I submit that when listening to, for example, a Guinean percussion troupe or a gamelan orchestra, one's key-sensing abilities are liable to get a little confused.

But that's not really the point. The point is Step 3. How does our OP identify the visual trace on his film that corresponds to the keynote? That was the question, really. Identifying the keynote is the first step in a process. I was asking for a description of it, with particular reference to Step 3.

Your south east asian so you are an expert?

Not southeast, south. The only point about my geographical location, and my travels, is that I have heard a lot of different kinds of music — and heard them not necessarily in a curatorial situation, like a WOMAD concert (though I've watched those too), but within the culture. This gives me a perspective from which to judge these claims. Most of them, you know, would be news to traditional Indian musicians, especially this little gem:

C# a little sharp of that is the sacred tone of the earth according to hinduism.

For your information, Indian classical musicians couldn't care less about absolute pitch; all they're interested in is the intervals, and they're very interested in those. Don't believe me? See here, also here and here.
This indifference to absolute pitch is the reason why most Indian musicians — like most musicians around the world — are quite happy to accept Western A=440 when playing with Western instruments. They just tune their instruments accordingly.

Actually, I am quite surprised that someone who claims to have been a sitar student does not know this — just as I am surprised that an 'acoustic engineer' is so innocent of some of the fundamentals of acoustics that he would post a howler like this:

It was by using the frequency where light and sound overlap

What frequency would that be?

They aren't even the same kind of waves, you know.

a reply to: Astyanax

Again i am not a google warior. I spent many years in India studying. Yes the old ways are slowly retreating but your google proof is not true. If you study where the musoc comes from (vedas) and the preservers of the style (drupad, kirana) you would have a clue but you dont.

Second gamelan is also easy to figure out. The scales are six note asymetrical "magical" tunings (pelog for instance). Just because you dont understand it or cant from a five minute article does not mean ethnomusicologists havent already well documented such things.

All of what you say is utter crap.

"According to Evan Reed, one of the authors of the study, converting sound to light itself is novel, because there is only a very narrow frequency range -- around 100 GHz to 10 THz -- where sound and light waves overlap

"

You read the article right?

Wonder if you have read the studies (syracuse) on meditation and brain wave activity of tibetan monks? Funny how they have cymapics and recognize sound as a bubble (not a wave). There is a lot of ancient wisdom that hasn't been "proven" yet by science. Then they hook up a monk for the sake of neuroscience and discover the communication and level of brain activity is off the charts. For me personally I would find it interesting what these people have to offer in the way of philosophy, metaphysics, and even physics.

Seeing as you are a physics (student?) it seems you would understand how important consciousness is and that sound and consciousness have a history in human scripture. Not only that but the study of harmony in terms of just pitches also relates to stable formulas (cell divisions, chemical compounds, other waveform harmony and adjustments such as radio, scalar etc). As does dissonant intervals with instability. What is reality it terms of modern theoretical physics? What is happening in modern cosmology with some of these Hubble pics? Pretending to know the answers makes you seem closed minded. Especially since science changes all the time when new information is gathered from new equipment better suited to observe the event.

So no sound is not just noise. Harmony is how Kepler came up with eliptical revolution in Harmonious Mundi.

originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: bluemooone2

If say 1000 years from now, if all these fields of research such as the metaphysical aspects and Cymatics of sound or of energy wave forms really advance too their full potential, do you think that such things as DNA awakening (perhaps) and or levitation even of the body could be possible?

No, I do not. I think such hopes will have long been laid to rest by then.

Hmmm really. I think not. I will wait for you to google some information you may not understand.
www.spiritoday.com...

How many false claims will you make.

Second. What is the nature of reality according to modern theoretical physics? How many universes are there? What is going on at the edge of space? Hmmm looks like you aren't quite the physicists you thought you were.

physicsworld.com...

physicsworld.com...