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In Defense of Chemtrail Conspiracy Theorists: Part 9. Not a "Delusion"

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posted on Apr, 16 2015 @ 03:02 PM
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It's quite obvious that many debunkers throw around the term "delusion" when they talk about what the people who are considered to be chemtrail conspiracy theorists believe, but in most cases they do so in nothing but a derogatory and antagonistic manner. History is littered with examples of people in places of authority (and those who just think they're in authority) calling their opponents "delusional" so often that nobody quite understands anymore what is a delusion. If you believe that the American Psychological Association and the American Psychiatric Association still have the authority to define it, here's what the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for Mental Disorders (DSM-IV) has to say about a delusion:



A false belief based on incorrect inference about external reality that is firmly sustained despite what almost everyone else believes and despite what constitutes incontrovertible and obvious proof or evidence to the contrary. The belief is not one ordinarily accepted by other members of the person’s culture or subculture (e.g. it is not an article of religious faith). When a false belief involves a value judgment, it is regarded as a delusion only when the judgment is so extreme as to defy credibility. Delusional conviction occurs on a continuum and can sometimes be inferred from an individual’s behavior. It is often difficult to distinguish between a delusion and an overvalued idea (in which case the individual has an unreasonable belief or idea but does not hold it as firmly as is the case with a delusion)” (p. 765).


Before debunkers likely take this definition above and go around trying to diagnose people who they believe are chemtrailers, understand that a "delusion" is a belief held with great conviction without any real evidence to believe it, but a layperson usually doesn't understand that the construct of a delusion does not end there. Cultural beliefs, such as those manifested by religion and what empiricists will call other "dogmatic" beliefs, as well as ideas that are known to be false but were widespread and imbibed with conviction by a large group of people (such as the notion that Saddham Hussein was somehow responsible for 9/11), do not qualify as "delusions" per se. There are also individuals whose beliefs may be eccentric but not easily proven to be simply delusions, and these individuals are at times branded with a psychiatric label they do not truly deserve.

Belief in a "chemtrail" is delusional if, according to the specific definition of a "chemical trail," incontrovertible evidence exists that no such thing has ever existed. Hence, when people choose to call a persistent contrail a "chemical trail," or chemtrail for short, this is not necessarily evidence of a delusion, particularly given a persistent contrail does contain chemicals (See: In Defense of Chemtrail Conspiracy Theorists: Part 6. Contrail vs. Chemtrail ). In this case, the difference is between one label that emphasizes the pollution and hazards of human-made clouds (chemtrail), and another label that emphasizes that human-made clouds and pollution are "normal" (contrail). More importantly, apart from persistent contrails, a) there is an invisible "chemical trail" that is still the result of jet fuel emissions, and b) there are other known cloud-like sprayings of the atmosphere that qualify as a type of "chemical trail" (e.g., aluminum coated fiberglass chaff deployed by the US Air Force, See In Defense of Chemtrail Conspiracy Theorists: Part 8. Contrails Are NOT Their Only Concern ). In fact, given evidence of different types of "chemicals trails" is indisputable, to NOT believe that "chemical trails" are a real phenomenon is so steeped in the defense mechanism of denial that it's more plausible the individuals who fight the term "chemtrail" with tooth and nail may be hovering on the border of delusion.

When top secret Operation Large Area Cloud was conducted in the US for many years from the 1950s to the 1960s, if you suspected that something was in the air, and that at times a strange particulate matter seemed to affect the quality of the air you were breathing, most people would have laughed at you. Some people would have no doubt called you delusional. They would have insisted that there was no change made to the air quality at all, and that you had no reason for your "paranoia." Yet, at this time the dispersion of biological agents including Serratia marcescens, Bacillus globigii, Bacillus subtilis and Aspergillus fumigates was very real. If you were in the right part of the country, you may have been breathing in organisms that should NOT have been in the air, were put there for experimental purposes without the public's awareness or consent, and that have been shown to be potentially pathogenic in people with weakened immune systems (See www.livescience.com...).

Other types of chemicals and biological agents have been released without the consequences of their deployment fully understood. "Dugway Proving Ground is a military testing facility located approximately 80 miles southwest of Salt Lake City. For several decades, Dugway has been the site of testing for various chemical and biological agents. From 1951 through 1969, hundreds, perhaps thousands of open-air tests using bacteria and viruses that cause disease in human, animals, and plants were conducted at Dugway... It is unknown how many people in the surrounding vicinity were also exposed to potentially harmful agents used in open-air tests at Dugway." Source: www.gulfweb.org... In 1994, Leonard Cole reported to the NY Times that this activity was still ongoing: "The Army still sprays bacteria outdoors at Dugway Proving Ground, 70 miles from Salt Lake City. While declaring that bacteria are no longer being disseminated over cities, the Army admits that during the 1980's it conducted more than 170 open-air tests at Dugway. The stated purpose was to evaluate the performance of biological-detector systems." Source: www.nytimes.com... So, whether it's manifested by a persistent contrail or not, who really knows what is being sprayed in the sky? It's simply not a paranoid question anymore unless your psychological defenses obliterate historical facts.

(continued below)




posted on Apr, 16 2015 @ 03:02 PM
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(continued from above)

If the people who call you delusional for suspecting something is being sprayed into the air that doesn't belong there tested the air in the wrong place or at the wrong time, they would claim to have the evidence that proves you have no cause for alarm despite a history of these top secret operations. Then, if you again anxiously sense at another time that something is wrong with the air quality you are breathing, they may feel justified to take you to a mental hospital and brand you with a label like "paranoid schizophrenic," but the truth is an air sample is not "incontrovertible and obvious proof" of anything but a moment in time. An air sample cannot tell the whole truth about what is happening in the sky, and I previously explained why in more detail (See In Defense of Chemtrail Conspiracy Theorists: Part 5. The Dreaded Burden of Proof ). Because you cannot continuously sample the air on a global basis at various altitudes, it is not actually known at this time what kind of research for the purposes of geoengineering or solar radiation management have been conducted or that may be happening right now. Do we have reasons not to trust the authority?--WITHOUT being unjustly accused of being delusional? We certainly do, with or without an air sample.


edit on -05:00America/Chicago30Thu, 16 Apr 2015 15:03:12 -0500201512312 by Petros312 because: spelling



posted on Apr, 16 2015 @ 03:04 PM
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This thread proves what's in those persistent white lines in the sky.

Any and all discussion otherwise, must be sourced with facts, or face serious ridicule.
serious.



posted on Apr, 16 2015 @ 03:05 PM
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a reply to: Petros312

Oh, and here, read this:

www.saidsimple.com...

Just trying to help out where I can.



posted on Apr, 16 2015 @ 03:06 PM
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a reply to: network dude
Just letting you know nobody is talking about mice chemtrails (or "ground based chemtrails").


(You have failed because of something known as KARMA.)



edit on -05:00America/Chicago30Thu, 16 Apr 2015 15:25:51 -0500201551312 by Petros312 because: edited for clarification after someone else quoted me



posted on Apr, 16 2015 @ 03:09 PM
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a reply to: Petros312

I'd like to discuss thread #4. You seem to have forgotten all about it. Like when you stated this:



If you're asking, But what does that have to do with the fact that a normal contrail is composed of H2O and ash..., my answer is: nothing. That's the point! Focusing on "facts" like these don't address the concern most chemtrailers have about clouds of some kind being deployed into the atmosphere, which should never be confounded with some nervous freak looking up, observing a contrail, and blurting out, I know they're spraying something to kill us!


Who were you referring to as "nervous freaks"?



posted on Apr, 16 2015 @ 03:09 PM
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a reply to: Petros312




History is littered with examples of people in places of authority (and those who just think they're in authority) calling their opponents "delusional" so often that nobody quite understands anymore what is a delusion.


Ah yes the old " it happened before, so it has to be happening now " argument...what a classic argument in the chemtrail conspiracy world.

So again remind me how linking back to your own threads is proof of anything other than your own bias toward debunkers?



posted on Apr, 16 2015 @ 03:10 PM
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originally posted by: Petros312
a reply to: network dude
Just letting you know nobody is talking about mice (or "ground based chemtrails").

You have failed.



ON the contrary, you are posting the chemtrail-geo-engineering forum.

Please define "chemtrail" so that we all know what you are talking about.
Thanks in advance.



posted on Apr, 16 2015 @ 03:11 PM
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originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
So again remind me how linking back to your own threads is proof of anything other than your own bias toward debunkers?


You can stop repeating over and over that all I'm doing is linking back to my own posts; each initial thread topic contains links to other informational websites to support the premise in each topic.



posted on Apr, 16 2015 @ 03:13 PM
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originally posted by: network dude
Please define "chemtrail" so that we all know what you are talking about.
Thanks in advance.


Already done:

In Defense of Chemtrail Conspiracy Theorists: Part 6. Contrail vs. Chemtrail



posted on Apr, 16 2015 @ 03:29 PM
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a reply to: Petros312




You can stop repeating over and over that all I'm doing is linking back to my own posts;


Well then don't do it in every post.



each initial thread topic contains links to other informational websites to support the premise in each topic.


No, what your doing is giving your opinion not facts...something very common in the chemtrail conspiracy theorist realm.



posted on Apr, 16 2015 @ 03:31 PM
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a reply to: Petros312

In your last two posts you forgot to address the question of who you were calling nervous freaks?

How does the statement "some nervous freak looking up, observing a contrail and blurting out I know they're spraying" relate to the group you've taken to linking to that states a contrail cannot last more than 45 seconds?

Are you a hypocrite at all? "Defending" and rallying those you yourself regard as nervous freaks? I've never seen a debunker call ANYONE that.

BTW, are these "nervous freaks" deluded, in your opinion? If not, what is freakish about them?

edit on 16-4-2015 by waynos because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 16 2015 @ 04:01 PM
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originally posted by: Petros312

originally posted by: network dude
Please define "chemtrail" so that we all know what you are talking about.
Thanks in advance.


Already done:

In Defense of Chemtrail Conspiracy Theorists: Part 6. Contrail vs. Chemtrail


Just quote the part you are referring to, or I can just site "all of ATS" to support anything I'd like to refer to.

Man up. Be honest. And who are nervous freaks?



posted on Apr, 16 2015 @ 04:03 PM
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a reply to: network dude




And who are nervous freaks?


The ones who are patting his back over these threads.



posted on Apr, 16 2015 @ 04:04 PM
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originally posted by: Petros312
a reply to: network dude
Just letting you know nobody is talking about mice chemtrails (or "ground based chemtrails").


(You have failed because of something known as KARMA.)




Who is talking about "ground based chemtrails"? I am quite sure that's something that isn't allowed to be discussed here AT ALL!



posted on Apr, 16 2015 @ 07:13 PM
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a reply to: Petros312

Every time this topic is brought up people come out of nowhere to derail the threads with nonsense and trolling, it is so frustrating. You spelled this wrong or your paragraphs aren't done right etc.

I believe a lot of people who call others delusional are the ones who are truly delusional especially when no mater what you say or what evidence you have, they dismiss your opinion, being dismissive is so counter constructive to exposing very real crimes.

I have personally witnessed what I believe to be weather modification several times and with others who were skeptical and after seeing what I have seen now are believers. I have seen airplanes fly in formation and in grid patterns on a clear day with absolutely no clouds whatsoever and watch the trails fan out until the sky goes silver white in 3-4 hours many times. People who have witnessed it with me get mad, and actually get depressed that such a thing is happening. Hard to deny what you have witnessed first hand. Its human nature not to look up and when they do it can be very surprising.


edit on 16-4-2015 by enament because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 16 2015 @ 07:17 PM
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a reply to: Petros312

Wow you are getting attacked by trolls so bad, very sad when people are trying to derail a good topic. I would report it to a moderator. A lot of off topic remarks.

edit on 16-4-2015 by enament because: Off topic remarks.



posted on Apr, 16 2015 @ 08:05 PM
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originally posted by: enament
a reply to: Petros312

Wow you are getting attacked by trolls so bad, very sad when people are trying to derail a good topic. I would report it to a moderator. A lot of off topic remarks.


Don't worry about that, and I'm sure the OP doesn't. Just concentrate on the topic itself to stay on topic yourself.
As for the topic, people are looking in.



posted on Apr, 16 2015 @ 08:40 PM
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The truth, there is geo engineering going on and it is very real. Is it dangerous, maybe. But it is going on and planes and unknown substances are used. They can say what ever they want about what they use, how can I know really? Oh and so was Fukushima, Chernobyl, DDT ( or round up), led paint, mercury, PCBs declared safe and controlled by responsible humans who are not here for profit and want the best for humanity.

PESTICIDES!

They have sprayed agents on the general population in the past. If you want a source google it yourself.

Also, contrails persist in the skies and create fake clouds which impacts the sun rays or better yet the amount of sun rays that reach us. This is observable and cannot be denied. Call them chem or con, it doesn't matter they are there and saying that they don't do any damage is ignoring the growing amount of planes in the sky criss crossing each others trails, stretching a veil across the sky right in your faces.

PESTICIDES!



posted on Apr, 17 2015 @ 01:37 PM
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Belief in a "chemtrail" is delusional if, according to the specific definition of a "chemical trail," incontrovertible evidence exists that no such thing has ever existed.


I don't know, something seems odd about the way you phrase it. I'd put it this way: Belief in a chemtrail is delusional if no evidence exists that such a thing ever existed.

It seems to me that there can't be evidence for something that doesn't exist. Is there incontrovertible evidence that unicorns don't exist? No, but it's the lack of evidence that they do exist that makes us think they don't exist. Now if someone managed to come up with a living example of a unicorn, that would overturn the whole stance on unicorns. And that's why 'debunkers' keep asking for evidence for chemtrails.. in vain, as it turns out, because it never materializes.

So clever bit of phrasing there, but no cigar


The belief in chemtrails is also delusional because chemtrail believers point at known phenomenae as evidence for 'chemtrails' (IE contrails, flap fairings, fuel dumps, wing vortices, aviation test equipment, ballast tanks, etc), claiming that they're evidence for 'chemtrails'.




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