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Why the Assumption of Judaism and Christianity Being the First Organized Religions?

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posted on Apr, 14 2015 @ 08:19 PM
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I was struck by something, people always assume Judaism and Christianity were the first and only organized religions. Every time you hear someone say something about organized religions, they automatically jump on Judeo/Christianity as though it was.

I would like to point out that there were many religions in the world, many of them evolved and many of them went away. Many of them simply changed names or became simple philosophies. But the truth is, religion is far more ancient than we understand and has been organized.

Brahmanism: The pre-Hindu religion of the Vedic Age. While their religious texts and teaching were first written down by sages, it was in the beginning organized, if not loosely.

Zoroastrianism: It was the monotheistic religion of Persia, founded by Zoroaster, from a dream of Zarathustra. Very organized and still is to this day.

Manicheism: Founded by Manu, somewhat Jewish/Christian/Hindu.

Roman: definitely within their various sects, each one was very organized.

Greek: same as Roman

Egyptian: same as Roman and Greek.

Mayan: organized very well, from the priests who performed human sacrifices.

Ba'alism: organized and at one time the state religion of Canaan.

Chemosh in Moab: much like Ba'alism, organized with priests.

Canaan, as well as Assyria and Akkadia, had state religions.

So why the assumption of Judaism and Christianity being the organized state religions?

The Celts, Goths, Visigoths, Ostragoths and Barbarians, those were organized state religions as well. Think about the history of Druidism, in the early days those Druid priests were advisers to Celtic kings. The Red Branch Knights, which may or may not have been real, were certainly the king's protectors, as the legends say.

I think the assumption does not warrant the criticism, there is too much historical evidence that proves other religions as being organized state religions. While one might disagree with the idea of any organized state religion, the fact is, that is how the world was. I don't really want to address which religion is more right than an another, I just wonder why people assume their assumption.

So please, when talking about organized state religions, don't make arguments about Judaism or Christianity as if they were the only ones. And in many places, the organized religions might not be the state religions, culturally they still bind together groups of people. The Hungarians might be Christianized, but they are still Magyars and still celebrate Arpad. Estonians were the last Europeans to be converted, but they still celebrate their pagan traditions. Walspurgisnacht is still celebrated.

Tengrism is now cultural, but at one time it was an organized state religion of the Turkic people. Notice, I said Turkic, not Turkey.

Native American religions might not be organized, but at one time they still had various religious views that were followed by the entire tribe. Wankan-tanka, just one tribal religion deity. I could mention them all, but it would take too long.

Tribal led to state, and it was done through organization. And you would not know about them if it had not been for the organization.




posted on Apr, 14 2015 @ 08:30 PM
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well, technically, (religious) Jews trace their faith back to Abraham, Noah, and Adam. can't go back much further. (that's a joke, kinda).

having said that...I don't know any religious scholar who believes this.
I think it's a culture thing; speaking as a US citizen, the vast majority of my fellow 'Murkin people are only aware of a handful of 'living' religions (Christian, Jew, Islam, Hindu, Buddhist, Voodoo, primitive tribal stuff). Sikh, Norse, Shinto, Wiccan and many others are too exotic / remote / rare to be on the radar.

(neo-pagan friend of mine had a bumper sticker: 'Wicca; the REAL Old-Time Religion'
edit on 14-4-2015 by works4dhs because: add clever line



posted on Apr, 14 2015 @ 08:34 PM
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a reply to: WarminIndy

Considering Christianity came from Judaism for someone to place them as te first two would be very strange.


Those two are not the only or first religions.

I guess they are just considering ones prevalent today. Hell Scientology is an organized religion who knows what will be big in another 2 to 3 thousand years.



posted on Apr, 14 2015 @ 08:35 PM
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I thought all it took for a religion to be organized is for there to be a group of people following a codified system of practices and beliefs. In that sense, any tribal group that has a high priest or shaman and follows the same rituals and ceremonies year in and year out has an organized religion.



posted on Apr, 14 2015 @ 08:38 PM
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originally posted by: works4dhs
well, technically, (religious) Jews trace their faith back to Abraham, Noah, and Adam. can't go back much further. (that's a joke, kinda).

having said that...I don't know any religious scholar who believes this.
I think it's a culture thing; speaking as a US citizen, the vast majority of my fellow 'Murkin people are only aware of a handful of 'living' religions (Christian, Jew, Islam, Hindu, Buddhist, Voodoo, primitive tribal stuff). Sikh, Norse, Shinto, Wiccan and many others are too exotic / remote / rare to be on the radar.


Jews also say the patriarch Abraham, when called Abram, was from Ur of the Chaldees and acknowledged that it was not in any way a Jewish religion. So yes, they go back to Seth. That's pretty far back. But they don't say Seth was a patriarch like Abraham, they still claim descent from Seth.

Joshua said to the people "you may serve the gods of your fathers from before the flood". He said "your fathers" indicating that all the people that were now considered Hebrews, because of the various reasons for joining the community of Jews, their fathers were from all the known religions before the flood. Some people might argue that there was never a flood, that is beside the point I am making. Joshua recognized there were other religions, that the patriarchs of those people were not Abraham.

Shinto was practiced by the Japanese, even today. That is a very old and animalistic nature religion. In fact, Admiral Yamamoto performed a Shinto ceremony just before the Emperor resigned the war. This was recorded by the Americans who witnessed it and allowed their right to religious expression.

I don't think those are rare, just not as well publicized in many cases.

But Neo-Wiccans based on Gardner isn't really that old. Gardner simply took up the name. He really didn't have an idea of the more ancient Wicca. That's why a lot of Wiccans will say they worship some Greek and Roman gods.

BTW, my brother is a Celtic Pagan, he tells me all the time about it.
edit on 4/14/2015 by WarminIndy because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 14 2015 @ 08:41 PM
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originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: WarminIndy

Considering Christianity came from Judaism for someone to place them as te first two would be very strange.


Those two are not the only or first religions.

I guess they are just considering ones prevalent today. Hell Scientology is an organized religion who knows what will be big in another 2 to 3 thousand years.


You are right, Scientology is a religion. And very organized and not willing to let members go without a fight. But you know what I mean, it is like "organized religion = only Judaism and Christianity".



posted on Apr, 14 2015 @ 08:41 PM
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originally posted by: ketsuko
I thought all it took for a religion to be organized is for there to be a group of people following a codified system of practices and beliefs. In that sense, any tribal group that has a high priest or shaman and follows the same rituals and ceremonies year in and year out has an organized religion.


Yes, that is correct.

Tribalism led to organized state religion.



posted on Apr, 14 2015 @ 08:44 PM
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I've never once heard anyone claim Judaism or Christianity to be the first organized religions. Were someone to make such an ignorant, erroneous claim, I would probably laugh in their face.



posted on Apr, 14 2015 @ 08:45 PM
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originally posted by: AdmireTheDistance
I've never once heard anyone claim Judaism or Christianity to be the first organized religions. Were someone to make such an ignorant, erroneous claim, I would probably laugh in their face.


Then you haven't met some of the people on ATS, youtube or many forums.

There are those who do think that way.



posted on Apr, 14 2015 @ 08:47 PM
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originally posted by: AdmireTheDistance
I've never once heard anyone claim Judaism or Christianity to be the first organized religions. Were someone to make such an ignorant, erroneous claim, I would probably laugh in their face.


There are plenty who act like it is. This is part of deny ignorance though. I'm guessing those who think this way have confined themselves pretty thoroughly to their own little corner of the Western World and what they wish to know or believe.

They would be like the people who can't find Iraq on a map or who have no clue who the seven Supreme Court justices are.



posted on Apr, 14 2015 @ 08:55 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko

I can certainly find Iraq on a map, but I couldn't care less who the Supreme Court justices are. There's a big difference between having general knowledge of things like history and geography, and keeping up with politics....



posted on Apr, 14 2015 @ 08:58 PM
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a reply to: WarminIndy

Hell,

How many Christian bashing treads do we need per DAY!

It is getting ridiculous.



posted on Apr, 14 2015 @ 09:01 PM
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originally posted by: AdmireTheDistance
a reply to: ketsuko

I can certainly find Iraq on a map, but I couldn't care less who the Supreme Court justices are. There's a big difference between having general knowledge of things like history and geography, and keeping up with politics....


Why do I always miss Gabon when I play the game on Sporcle?

The highest I have ever had was 195/197.

The point Ketsuko was trying to make is that there are people who didn't even know the issues in the last presidential campaign and don't know where the very countries are that we are involved in war with.

But they probably watch Saturday Night Live to get their news.



posted on Apr, 14 2015 @ 09:01 PM
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a reply to: infolurker

Someone has some ultra thin skin if they think this is bashing.



posted on Apr, 14 2015 @ 09:02 PM
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originally posted by: infolurker
a reply to: WarminIndy

Hell,

How many Christian bashing treads do we need per DAY!

It is getting ridiculous.


Ummm, I am a Christian.

And we can make as many as we want, there is no limit, as long as we stay in the T&C. That's the beauty of ATS.



posted on Apr, 14 2015 @ 09:03 PM
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originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: infolurker

Someone has some ultra thin skin if they think this is bashing.


Oh, if I could just applaud you.
Yes, you got a star for that one.



posted on Apr, 14 2015 @ 09:08 PM
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Lot of factors why Christianity and Judaism is discussed here.

It is considered part of the top 3, this is mainly a western site. The neighbors and friends who tlk about are also grew up with it.

Islam recently came into the western topic after 9/11.

i think #3 on the list after Islam, is Hindusim. If you go to India, Hindusim will be talked about and there are many anti religious group there as well.

Compared to top 3, History wise Hinduism has not been belligerent as the top 2, and it is different because it is poly-theistic, has Female and Male gods thus it is not taken serious and talked about least.
edit on 4/14/2015 by luciddream because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 14 2015 @ 09:08 PM
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originally posted by: infolurker
a reply to: WarminIndy

Hell,

How many Christian bashing treads do we need per DAY!

It is getting ridiculous.


It's not bashing to point out that Christianity is not the first organized religious system in the world. It in no way diminishes God or Christ either one. In fact, the Bible makes reference to earlier, older religions in the OT, so I don't see why you would think this is bashing to acknowledge it.

The OP is asking why people who bash Christianity often couch their criticism in terms of it and Judaism being the first organized religions because they do at times behave in this way.



posted on Apr, 14 2015 @ 09:29 PM
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originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: infolurker
a reply to: WarminIndy

Hell,

How many Christian bashing treads do we need per DAY!

It is getting ridiculous.


It's not bashing to point out that Christianity is not the first organized religious system in the world. It in no way diminishes God or Christ either one. In fact, the Bible makes reference to earlier, older religions in the OT, so I don't see why you would think this is bashing to acknowledge it.

The OP is asking why people who bash Christianity often couch their criticism in terms of it and Judaism being the first organized religions because they do at times behave in this way.


If history repeats itself, then there will be a one world religion, because there was one in the most ancient days. But every Christian knows it won't be Christianity. We have already been taught that it will happen. We knew it would happen long before there ever was an idea of Illuminati.

Linguists have proven the world was one language at one time. The Bible said that a long time ago. And the people trying to reach the stars or to reach God through building pyramids, the Bible already told us that a long time ago.

It is amazing how all these things that those ancients were telling us, it is being discovered more and more every day. And what is more amazing is that people who are not Christian are using the Bible to point that out.

I find it incredulous that the book of our faith is used by non-Christians to show what the Bible does say about the past and future. Like Isaac Asimov wrote "visions of a future past". Even now, people are talking about the vimanas of the Bhagavad Gita and the Mahabarahta, along with the Bible, to show the things being found in the world. And all over the world.

Non-Christians are doing it. And non-Christians are using astrotheology by explaining the Bible...if non-Christians are always doing this, then there must be something transcendent about it. Ezekeil's wheel, vimanas and now UFO sightings, always they quote from the Bible.

The Annunaki and Reptilian and Archons, which people claim are in the Book of Enoch and Sumerian tablets...they still point to the Bible, saying "nephilim". And those are non-Christians.

And looking for the world overlord, of the Illuminati...they use the Bible to predict it, even though they are non-Christian. I just am amazed how they use the Bible for all of this, and they aren't even Christian.

Visions of a future past. Time and history repeats itself.



posted on Apr, 14 2015 @ 10:23 PM
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a reply to: WarminIndy

There is no reason a non-Christian cannot use the Bible as a reference guide to point out the conflicts of currently accepted history and what may have very well been documented by ancient cultures.



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