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Why we collectively may not discover life in the universe.

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posted on Apr, 22 2015 @ 08:50 AM
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originally posted by: game over man
a reply to: JadeStar

This is where you have selective reading...I'm asking is it possible to have a secret space program, and you say it is not. I don't believe in it...I'm trying to research it. Thanks


I'm not quite sure you are getting what is being said here...

Jade is simply stating that once an asset is on orbit, it can not be hidden...it is there for all to see. It is still possible for this asset to be "secret", in that, just because you can see it, you can't know its purpose.

And, IF you seriously wish to research this secret space program, you will need the proper tools...start with a good telescope and camera. Add exotic software later to assist in our analysis...oh yeah...you will need a decent general purpose computer as well. None of these are difficult to find.


edit on 22-4-2015 by tanka418 because: (no reason given)

edit on 22-4-2015 by tanka418 because: (no reason given)




posted on Apr, 22 2015 @ 12:24 PM
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a reply to: tanka418

Let me get this straight:

1. You and Jade argued with me that there is no such thing as a secret launch when we have fighter jets launching things into space. That is one example I found, maybe there are more. She went full tilt saying no launch can be hidden unless you believe in silent rockets and invisible fire like the Easter Bunny. "Well it's not secret" (plug your nose and say this out loud).

2. Then later you admit we might not know what it is, but we'll be able to see it. We aren't talking about if we can or can not see it. I never posed a question, are there satellites we can't see, but that is interesting. Do you think an "invisible" per se satellite could exist? Or no? Impossible right? "We'd see the heat signature..."

3. I was merely trying help this thread since it was debunked you can't install secret cameras onto spacecraft for public missions. This is where I chimed in. I thought well instead of saying no it can't be done, maybe there is another way around it; for the government to obtain secret information from space. This is a conspiracy theory website, ain't it? So I would like to know. Jade even said she doesn't know we'd have to ask Jim O Berg about a secret space program.

4. Then we got into this silly cat fight where "nothing can be secret"...I imagine you sticking your fingers in your ears like Bullwinkle and sticking your tongue out at me. Your style of arguing is just the same as left and right politics, and I am not arguing anything. If I later find out that there are times of the years, certain places from Earth, that you could launch something into space undetected then you two are full of it.

5. I don't care about spy satellites going into Earth's orbit. I'm talking about side missions, unreleased to the public, unknown to Jade Star, yourself or Jim Oberg, is that possible? Is it possible to launch something into space, any destination may it be your choosing, that can go undetected? Pretty simple question...Don't know why it's so confusing, I must not be very good at speaking english. But apparently no matter what I say the answer is no. That to me is just your way of avoiding to explore something you don't really know about.

Is there a good location anywhere in our Solar System where secret space craft could hide? Whether it be a probe, satellite, ground base, orbiting base, or space craft? Or do we have cameras installed at all the intersections of of solar system to catch UFO's running red lights?

Please answer instead of posting a rebuttal like we are arguing! I am not stating there are places to hide, I'm asking are there? Huge difference! Your stereotypical goto answer is making assumptions about me, because it's easier for you to have a conversation if you pretend that I'm an idiot believer; that answer being "but Nasa wouldn't cover it up, a discovery like that would increase funding."

I don't care if Nasa covers it up or not, I am not even in that camp so don't put me there. I am asking are there remote places in our Solar System for a secret space mission to exist undetected? Or maybe remoteness is impossible in space? All three of you certainly come across in that way of thinking.

6. This whole thread is about a secret camera on board Dawn. Sorry if I didn't make it clear that maybe a secret satellite could be sent to Ceres to look at the city lights. I guess that got confused with a spy satellite orbiting Earth. But please before you go nuts, I don't think the brights spots on Ceres are lights of a city. Goodness gracious, I am waiting for confirmation that it is a natural phenomenon, like most sane people.

You'll probably answer well we would see a secret satellite as were observing Dawn approach Ceres, well what if they were at Ceres 10 years ago. Is that possible? I'm not saying there is a secret space program, I'm not saying there are city lights on Ceres. I'm asking is the logistics possible for a secret space mission? That is all I'm asking. Not that one exists, but is it possible to have secret space missions?

Maybe because all 3 of your are American, how about secret American missions, that other countries don't have the best technology to observe our secret missions? Is that possible? Can the US launch some type of anti-nuclear defense satellite whatever you call it that Russia, Ukraine, North Korea, or ISIS would be unaware of?

What is the population of amateur astronomers in 2nd and 3rd world countries using all the tech you described required to observe space? How much of the earth is 2nd or 3rd world countries? How much worldwide coverage do amateur astronomers create? Is there a limit? Because when you say things are impossible to get by amateur astronomers, then there is no limit to world wide vantage points of space from amateur astronomers. I'm surprised by that. How did they catch Osama Bin Laden?

7. Lastly the Easter Bunny insult has evolved from believing in Aliens as the occupants of UFO's is like believing in the Easter Bunny, to secret space missions from humans is like believing in the Easter Bunny. That is incredible.
edit on 22-4-2015 by game over man because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 22 2015 @ 03:04 PM
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a reply to: game over man

Let me ask you this; IF I had an object that was a secret, and, I placed it out in the open where anybody could inspect it to their hearts content; "Would it be secret?" Or simply a well known object that few understand?

IF you launched a satellite into orbit, there are instruments, ALL SKY Cameras that cover virtually the entire sky, world over. that will "see" that launch. From that data know that you have launched, and, I can get a rather good idea of your orbit. With that, I can find your satellite and analyze it remotely using my telescope and some specialized software (spectrum analyzer, etc.)...so now; "How secret is your satellite?"

You launched on the down low, my instruments detected it, I found your secret and analyzed it...

Again, once in space it is no longer secret. But, you should also know, that comes with a bunch of caveats.



ETA: I went off and did a quick search to find some demographics on amateur astronomers; It seems that the U.S. and Britain are about the same at 1% of the population. Though I would doubt that that percentage will hold once we get to 3rd world countries...so as a guess...0.01% of global population or about 70,000,000 world wide.


edit on 22-4-2015 by tanka418 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 22 2015 @ 03:20 PM
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a reply to: tanka418

Once in space it's no longer a secret? Or once in Earth's orbit it's no longer a secret?

2nd



posted on Apr, 22 2015 @ 03:27 PM
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a reply to: tanka418

Where's your source for the amateur astronomers research? Please provide the source for your info. Please explain why you think 0.01% of third world countries make up amateur astronomers?

Now for the purposes of math, 7 billion x 1% would be= 7 billion x .01

If you want to do the math of 7 billion x 0.01% that would be 7 billion x 0.0001, correct? So 700,000, right?



posted on Apr, 22 2015 @ 03:39 PM
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originally posted by: game over man
a reply to: tanka418

Where's your source for the amateur astronomers research? Please provide the source for your info. Please explain why you think 0.01% of third world countries make up amateur astronomers?

Now for the purposes of math, 7 billion x 1% would be= 7 billion x .01

If you want to do the math of 7 billion x 0.01% that would be 7 billion x 0.0001, correct? So 700,000, right?



Yes, you are correct on the math...long day. I thought that value looked high, but...since the estimated values for the US and Brit is 1% we ill have to add 3 million to that...so 3.5 million.

As for the demographics...I did a simple search...I'm sure you will be able to google the same results for "how many amateur astronomers are there?"

Those results indicated 1% for the U.S., etc. the rest is, I already said, a guess.



posted on Apr, 22 2015 @ 03:40 PM
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originally posted by: game over man
a reply to: tanka418

Once in space it's no longer a secret? Or once in Earth's orbit it's no longer a secret?

2nd


Oh yeah...that would be once in space. It would also be one of those caveats I mentioned...in space you can hide...even in orbit...Earth has a whole technology for that.



posted on Apr, 22 2015 @ 03:56 PM
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a reply to: tanka418

So you don't have a reliable source for that market data. How many people bought a telescope say in 2014 in the US? I highly doubt a million telescopes were sold. There is a difference between telescopes sold at Walmart, Best Buy, and Costco to the ones you may buy online from a specialized source, correct? Or are they all the same? What are people in the US using more? Mass produced telescopes or specialized telescopes? Which model/make? How many of those people use them frequently? How many of them are hobbyist? How many of them bought them, used them a few times and are now collecting dust? I have relatives who would be guilty of that. I'm not trying to ridicule the amateur astronomer explanation, just want to be accurate with this explanation.



posted on Apr, 22 2015 @ 04:01 PM
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a reply to: charlyv

Well it has been suggested that our Earth is a prison planet, if this were the case what better way to dissuade or retard the possibility of escape than to allow the inmates aka us to believe no other life exists outwith the facility aka our beloved Earth.
edit on 22-4-2015 by andy06shake because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 22 2015 @ 10:22 PM
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originally posted by: game over man
a reply to: tanka418

So you don't have a reliable source for that market data. How many people bought a telescope say in 2014 in the US? I highly doubt a million telescopes were sold. There is a difference between telescopes sold at Walmart, Best Buy, and Costco to the ones you may buy online from a specialized source, correct? Or are they all the same?


Are they different? Or simply a different model...And just what is a specialized source? I'll be buying my telescope from Celestron, as opposed to a dealer...like say Best Buy , or something. Point is telescopes are manufactured by many, and sold by many more.

However, there are important differences between the "kind" of telescope, its "size", lenses and other factors determine a lot.

They are all "mass produced", in that the methods of manufacture are all standardized.



What are people in the US using more? Mass produced telescopes or specialized telescopes? Which model/make? How many of those people use them frequently? How many of them are hobbyist? How many of them bought them, used them a few times and are now collecting dust? I have relatives who would be guilty of that. I'm not trying to ridicule the amateur astronomer explanation, just want to be accurate with this explanation.



The demographics you want simply aren't available...at least not easily...perhaps you would like to contact the telescope manufacturer's association and ask. For me a rough thumb nail will suffice.

You should also know that many "astronomical societies" have pooled their resources and have purchased serious telescopes...There is also the possibility of using one of the online telescopes...there is a 30" telescope available for only $120.00/hr...

Many "astronomical society" members don't own a telescope, to fill the need to observe they typically congregate at a "dark location" and share higher end equipment.

Point is that there are quite a lot of resources available to the amateur astronomer, and the range is from the very inexpensive to very serious and expensive...with the advent of the Internet...many of these resources are available to everyone at an affordable cost.

edit on 22-4-2015 by tanka418 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 23 2015 @ 05:11 AM
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originally posted by: game over man
a reply to: tanka418

So you don't have a reliable source for that market data. How many people bought a telescope say in 2014 in the US?

According to Life Magazine, 55,000 telescopes were sold in the U.S. in 1955. link

Probably a lot more today, but it's not really worth going into, especially when you consider that quite a few people have telescopes and telescopes last for years.

That is, annual sales figures don't tell you anything about how many people own and use telescopes, and such figures certainly vastly understate the number of people that actually own telescopes.

Harte



posted on Apr, 23 2015 @ 01:23 PM
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Why we collectively may not discover life in the universe?

Well, one possibility, however unlikely or unpopular (esp. here at ATS), is:




BECAUSE; we are all ALONE...



posted on Apr, 23 2015 @ 01:53 PM
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a reply to: Harte

Hi Harte, thank you for the information...I disagree as I am in sales, and annual sales definitely gives you a clear indication on usage. In any industry companies have to look at that data so they can forecast production. Annual sales is definitely not irrelevant.



posted on Apr, 23 2015 @ 04:41 PM
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a reply to: Outrageo

Seems rather arrogant to suggest we are all alone in such a vast universe.



posted on Apr, 23 2015 @ 07:36 PM
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originally posted by: game over man
a reply to: Harte

Hi Harte, thank you for the information...I disagree as I am in sales, and annual sales definitely gives you a clear indication on usage. In any industry companies have to look at that data so they can forecast production. Annual sales is definitely not irrelevant.

What do annual sales tell you about how many people have owned the same telescope for years?

On top of that, many people own more than one.

Harte



posted on Apr, 23 2015 @ 08:29 PM
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a reply to: Harte

Annual sales tell us how many new telescope owners there are and how many people upgraded their previous one or bought a new one. It give us an idea of the number of users, new and current. Yes of course if the regular users aren't replacing them then they wouldn't be included in this number. However maybe amateur astronomers replace their scope every 5 years? I don't know, why not compare annual sales over a longer period of time and see what that tells you?

Whatever that number is, consider the amount of owners who never use their scope? Or those who use it once a week? What percentage of the total amateur astronomy community is regularly running a graveyard shift on the sky?

I thought the sky is pretty big? If you're looking one way, surely you can't be looking the other way? If you're zoomed in, surely you can't see around you? So this whole concept of the existence of amateur astronomers somehow debunks UFO's is a little misleading...

How can we test this theory? I'm open to testing it...has there ever been a case of some type of ariel phenomenon happening and no one was able to witness it but later we found evidence of it? What about the attack on Pearl Harbor? What about a new species of bird being discovered? What about a meteorite falling to earth?

Maybe small objects can pass through undetected?


A woman in Turley, Oklahoma, got a noggin-knock in January 1997 when she was struck with a lightweight fragment of charred woven material. She was not injured. The sky junk was identified as debris from a Delta 2 booster, which reentered the Earth's atmosphere on Jan. 22, 1997. Other debris from that booster included a steel propellant tank and a titanium pressure sphere.


Why didn't amateur astronomers or Nasa warn this woman before she got hit in the head from something falling from space? I thought this wasn't supposed to happen, it is impossible?

Link 10 worst space debri crashes

Wow here's another one:

Space Junk falls through person's roof

Here's another example:

Space Junk crash lands on Earth

THE biggest piece of US space junk to fall in 30 years has crash-landed, but the precise location is not yet known, NASA says.

THE biggest piece of US space junk to fall in 30 years has crash-landed, but the precise location is not yet known, NASA says.


Wow! This is interesting, Nasa has a limitation on detecting orbital debris:
Link

14). What about orbital debris in the geostationary orbit near 36,000 km altitude where many telecommunications and meteorological spacecraft operate?
Our ability to detect orbital debris at such heights is limited, but studies indicate that the orbital debris population is probably less severe there than in low Earth orbit. However, since the geostationary orbit is a special natural resource, many spacecraft operators boost their old spacecraft into higher, disposal orbits at the end of their mission.


The company that works for Nasa who observes orbital debris, which IMO, would be observing any UFO's, is owned by the DOD, Department of Defense.

US Strategic Command

Here's another one: Space Surveillance Network


The command accomplishes these tasks through its Space Surveillance Network (SSN) of U.S. Army, Navy and Air Force operated, ground-based radar's and optical sensors at 25 sites worldwide.


Link

Run by US Space Command for the North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD), it is manned primarily by personnel from the Air Force, Naval, and Army Space Commands and the Canadian Air Force. Their basic mission is to protect the North American continent and US and Canadian interests worldwide against threats from space.


Just google U.S. Space Surveillance Network...

So there are limitations when observing objects in the sky!

The biggest observers of the sky, listed above, are the ones who are also accused of a cover up of UFO's and ET visitation! ! Go figure!
edit on 23-4-2015 by game over man because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 23 2015 @ 08:46 PM
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originally posted by: game over man
a reply to: Harte

Annual sales tell us how many new telescope owners there are and how many people upgraded their previous one or bought a new one.

I'd say they can tell us something about one of the two, but not both.

Nothing debunks UFOs. UFOs are by definition unidentified.

I was simply motivated to take a look at sales figures by an earlier post, but I could only find the old Life Magazine article. I could have looked harder, I guess, but I don't think you can infer much by sales figures, for the same reasons you laid out. It doesn't tell you much about the likelihood of anything secret being discovered by amateurs.

I think the mere existence of an amateur astronomy populace is enough to prevent any agency from thinking they could launch or maintain orbit without anyone knowing about it. So I doubt they would do it.

Harte
edit on 4/23/2015 by Harte because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 23 2015 @ 09:03 PM
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originally posted by: tanka418

originally posted by: game over man
a reply to: JadeStar

This is where you have selective reading...I'm asking is it possible to have a secret space program, and you say it is not. I don't believe in it...I'm trying to research it. Thanks


I'm not quite sure you are getting what is being said here...

Jade is simply stating that once an asset is on orbit, it can not be hidden...it is there for all to see. It is still possible for this asset to be "secret", in that, just because you can see it, you can't know its purpose.

And, IF you seriously wish to research this secret space program, you will need the proper tools...start with a good telescope and camera. Add exotic software later to assist in our analysis...oh yeah...you will need a decent general purpose computer as well. None of these are difficult to find.



Thank you tanka. I kinda gave up.



posted on Apr, 23 2015 @ 09:20 PM
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originally posted by: game over man
a reply to: tanka418

Once in space it's no longer a secret? Or once in Earth's orbit it's no longer a secret?

2nd


Once it is in space it is no longer secret. For your hypothetical secret deep space mission...

The act of sending it there is not a quiet/invisible one but let's say that you were able to launch something from some remote jungle where no one had a cell phone (good luck finding any place like that on Earth now)....

Once you have launched it you enter an orbit which you have to increase in order to escape Earth's gravity. This requires another stage which of course means you're not air launching it from a fighter jet..... lol

Ok, so let's say you somehow still launched in secret and are on your way to the Moon, or one of the Lagrange points to "park" your spacecraft.

You have to communicate with it. The further out you go, the bigger the communications demands, which means you have to use a bigger earth station or in this case, series of earth stations in multiple nations because the earth rotates.


So.... that involves even more people keeping things secret....

While the military has earth stations to communicate with LEO and GEO satellites they are too small to communicate with deep space missions beyond the moon like Dawn is.

For that you need something like the NASA Deep Space Network.

Only problem is there's only a few networks like that on Earth. NASA has one, Russia and Europe has another. I think maybe that's it. China and India are in the infancy of building anything like that.

And building up such a network would not be easy to keep secret either since big radio dishes are kinda conspicuous.

edit on 23-4-2015 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 23 2015 @ 11:37 PM
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a reply to: JadeStar

There are definitely places in the world with no cell phone coverage. I'm not going to google all that for you, again. Why the need to communicate? It's a spy mission isn't? The communication could be picked up? Why have craft that you're familiar with? It is a secret mission isn't it?

I also googled NASA Deep Space Network

Very cool stuff! Wonderful, thank you for that.

If this is all hypothetically happening, what would they be doing? Either the conspiracy theory of secret bases in space, or testing of super advanced space craft. If the DOD is so highly involved with NASA, then I really think some high level of intel could happen, and the "secret space program" would know exactly when and where to launch to remain covert from the public, thanks to their DOD buddies at NASA. Maybe even the NSA is involved and it's all hacked unbeknownst to the DOD Nasa good ol boys.

Could any of this be happening? Maybe not at all, but there are UFO sightings! Decades of them, some claim centuries...That is what it all comes down to at the end of the day. Are these craft of earthly origin, or are they ET?

You are entitled to the opinion that all UFO sightings are natural rare phenomenon or military air craft that will be public in a few years, maybe 10 years. That's fine. I like that explanation too, but I am also intrigued on the aforementioned.



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