It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
Anyone who doesn't believe Jesus Christ was a real person that walked the earth I challenge you to explain the conversion of Paul without sounding like a nut..
“O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?” Listen to the words carefully: “Before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified.”
originally posted by: Involutionist
"Anyone who doesn't believe Jesus Christ was a real person that walked the earth..."
Again: I will use Paul's words to do so:
“From now on we will regard no one from a human point of view, even though we formerly regarded Christ from a human point of view, we regard him thus no longer.” (2 Corinthians 5:16)
You seem to think that "not regarding someone from a human point of view" means "not thinking they are human".
Did you not read the first half of the sentence you quoted- "we will regard NO ONE from a human point of view"?
If the phrase meant what you want it to mean, then Paul would be saying that he doesn't think ANYONE is a real person.
The Greek phrase is KATA SARKA ("according to the flesh"), which Paul always opposes to KATA PNEUMA ("according to the Spirit"). Paul is talking here about his own attitude. He will now allow his attitude to people, including Christ, to be governed by the Spirit, rather than by his own "fleshly" point of view.
If you intend to use Paul a lot, brush up on your knowledge of New Testament Greek and get a good commentary.
It really isn't a tiny fraction of scholars that find the Tacitus quote as a forgery the very fact that it didn't surface until the 15th century and wasn't quoted even once by scholars who searched for these things to affirm the faith such as Tertullian, who read and quoted Tacitus extensively who made no mention of the quote.
and how no imperial document would ever refer to Jesus as "Christ"
I personally see the Tacitus quote as a forgery based on the evidence and circumstance around it. That is a position many historians hold as well even those bound to the faith which proves it isn't a one-sided issue.
Robert Van Voorst writes that only a few words in the text are generally disputed, such as Tacitus’ spelling of the word “Crestians” instead of “Christians,” and his naming Pilate as “procurator” instead of the more accurate “prefect.” He writes that on the basis of these a few have claimed that the entire passage is the result of a subsequent Christian editor, but calls this “pure speculation.”(98) The differences are easily reconciled. Moreover, the style of the text definitely belongs to Tacitus. Pagan editors did not express themselves in the Latin that Tacitus uses(99) and a Christian editor would not have had Tacitus call Christianity a “deadly superstition.” Besides all of this, the passage fits well in the context. Tacitus was a Roman Governor and could have had knowledge of past events concerning the Roman Empire. Therefore, there is no reason to doubt that Tacitus mentions Jesus as an historical person and His crucifixion by Pilate as an historical event.
He said in Rome 13 that the powers that be are all of God and that to resist will lead to damnation
Paul also said in Galatians 2:16 that we are justified by believing that Jesus's body was a human sacrifice for sins and not through doing good works.
According to Jesus of The Gospels in Matthew 7:21, you go to heaven for being good (doing God's will).
Disraeli took care of the response for me. I am not even going to give you the time of day unless you present something factual and convincing.
“O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?”
Name a Tacitean scholar who rejects the passage as authentic. Name one other scholar beside Carrier, that would say the passage is not in tacitus' writing style.
originally posted by: Involutionist
Listen to the words carefully: “Before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified”
Why is Paul questioning the crucifiction story which is a fundamental core belief of Christianity? Again, why did Paul convert...?
.I was told to brush up on my understanding of OT by Disraeli.
Notice what the people are claiming to have done to get into heaven...works....and your right Jesus says to do God's will and what does Jesus say when asked what God's will is?
Here are some questions, why would Tacitus a Roman Historian who had access to and be able to use official sources from Roman archives label Pilate incorrectly as a procurator rather than a Prefect.
Why would Tacitus use the word “messiah” in an authentic Roman document? Especially for someone who was anti Christian.
Why was the passage not quoted by any Church father up to the 15th century, the passage would have been very useful to them?
I think they are 5th century to 8th century copies going by memory. I already stated what I believe it to be, but I can't say for certain if it is a forgery or not. I do know none are original works. Maybe that explains why words were changed. As you said it could be a mistake.