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Russia lifts ban on delivering missile-defence system to Iran

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posted on Apr, 28 2015 @ 02:51 PM
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a reply to: mSparks43

No it isn't. Size wise it's similar to the Flanker and its family. But it's a completely new design. If you really look at it you can see the differences. They used off the shelf components where they could to keep costs down, but it's an entirely new design.

A fourth generation aircraft can't suddenly become a fifth generation fighter. You really have no clue. You don't build a shell that goes over a frame when you build aircraft. They'd have to completely rebuild them from the ground up.



edit on 4/28/2015 by Zaphod58 because: (no reason given)

edit on 4/28/2015 by Zaphod58 because: (no reason given)




posted on Apr, 28 2015 @ 03:02 PM
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a reply to: Zaphod58

its a "new design" - in that the shell is different, electronic components and computers are upgraded
They have new engines in developement.

The "chassis" is the same (actually, looking more at it, it's su27 airframe, su30 is the "export" variant) (analogous to the BMW M series)

So anyone who has an su27 airframe
can have the latest and greatest fgfa

just by removing the old parts (designed to be easily replaced when damaged during battle) and bolting on the new ones.

USA could of kept up if they did something similar with the F15.
Instead, you gave the western markets the catastrophe that is the f35. and none of the potential buyers are close to having aircraft that can compete. and to do so they have to completely replace their entire stock.

All because it "had" to have VTOL. (aka "sitting duck mode")
which makes you slow, clumsy and heavy. (which is why the loadout is so abysmal)
edit on 28-4-2015 by mSparks43 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 28 2015 @ 03:18 PM
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a reply to: mSparks43

Oh my god. You are just making this up as you go aren't you?

You can't take an Su-27 and convert it to a T-50. The basic structure is different, the length is different, the wingspan is different, the basic planform is different. According to your logic, since the F-15 and F-22 look similar the F-22 skin is just a shell that goes on an F-15.

You're also proving you know crap about the F-35. Even the B model, the only one with STOVL capability has a good payload. Carrying internal weapons only the F-35 can carry over 5,000 pounds of weapons.


edit on 4/28/2015 by Zaphod58 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 28 2015 @ 03:27 PM
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a reply to: Zaphod58

en.wikipedia.org...


it has instead remained as a technology demonstrator for updated Su-27 family aircraft such as the export Su-30 and the modernized Su-35.


i.e.
upgrade your su27 to su37 capabilities by buying the new parts

T-50 is the latest of the new parts.

www.highbeam.com...

Halfway to PAK FA: the latest addition to the Su-27 family seeks to bridge the gap to the fifth generation combat aircraft.(Defence)


like I said, I'm not an expert on this particular field (radar, rf, AI and healthcare are my main fields), not going to get it spot on.

but at least I know the basic difference between a totally brand new aircraft, and one that is an update.

I said from the start the su37 - can the patriot shoot down stealth.
someone else brought up the T50.
edit on 28-4-2015 by mSparks43 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 28 2015 @ 04:11 PM
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a reply to: mSparks43

And just look at the Su-27 family. Every one of them has the same basic characteristics. Same wing shape, same fuselage shape, same tail shape. The basic dimensions are the same. There are some differences in height, but they're all basically the same.

Su-27 family

The Su-37 too.
Wing Span 15.16 m / 49 ft 9 in
Length 21.94 m / 72 ft
Height 6.84 m / 22 ft 5 in
Weight 40,565 lb empty / 74,956 lb max. take off

There's a slight difference in the wingspan, but it's the same.

Now let's look at the planform.

Su-34:
aviationintel.com...

Su-27:
th07.deviantart.net...

Su-37:
th05.deviantart.net...

Minor changes between them.

Now the T-50, which is designed to replace the Flanker family:
Length: 19.8 m (65.0 ft)
Wingspan: 13.95 m (45.8 ft)
Height: 4.74 m (15.6 ft)
Wing area: 78.8 m2 (848.1 ft2)
Empty weight: 18,000 kg (39,680 lb)
Loaded weight: 25,000 kg (55,115 lb) typical mission weight, 28,300 kg (62,390 lb) at full fuel
Max. takeoff weight: 35,000 kg (77,160 lb)

Planform:

s6.photobucket.com...

The T-50 is NOT a member of the Flanker family. No matter how hard you try it's never going to be.

As for the Patriot shooting down an F-22, nothing out there has an RCS close to the F-22, so it's irrelevant if it can or not.



posted on Apr, 28 2015 @ 04:51 PM
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originally posted by: haman10
Russia is ahead of US in airdefense tech. by leaps and bounds .

Comparing Patriot PAC3 with even S-300PMU1 is merely a ridiculous notion . let alone PMU2 or S-400 .


The US strategy is to do air defense with aircraft. Air defense launching stations which move at 700 miles per hour with highly adaptive natural intelligence guidance systems.

Maybe a few ground stations against ballistic missiles.
edit on 28-4-2015 by mbkennel because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 28 2015 @ 05:03 PM
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originally posted by: mSparks43
a reply to: Zaphod58

its a "new design" - in that the shell is different, electronic components and computers are upgraded
They have new engines in developement.

The "chassis" is the same (actually, looking more at it, it's su27 airframe, su30 is the "export" variant) (analogous to the BMW M series)

So anyone who has an su27 airframe
can have the latest and greatest fgfa

just by removing the old parts (designed to be easily replaced when damaged during battle) and bolting on the new ones.

USA could of kept up if they did something similar with the F15.
Instead, you gave the western markets the catastrophe that is the f35. and none of the potential buyers are close to having aircraft that can compete. and to do so they have to completely replace their entire stock.

All because it "had" to have VTOL. (aka "sitting duck mode")
which makes you slow, clumsy and heavy. (which is why the loadout is so abysmal)


Well i see you are clueless why do you make stuff up? Started with the s 300 and now moved on to Russian aircraft. First you cant use a 4th gen fighter and make a 5th gen fighter. The reason is simple angles are added to lower its cross section. This is why Russia is having a very hard time building their first stealth aircraft and according to india got it wrong. Problem is when you purposefully add angles to the craft you still need to make sure its as streamlined as possible and the control surfaces can make up for it. stealth aircraft make 100s of flight corrections per minute the reason they fly is simple the computer. The US is the only country that has a stealth aircraft since apparently according to India tests on the Russians they failed and lights up like a christmas tree .The Indians have requested 3 times to talk to people about the F-35B they want to purchase it. Unfortunately for them no one has been picking up the phone. India is not a strong enough ally to risk giving the F35. They want all the advantages of being allies but without the strings.

Now since we know Russia doesnt have a 5th generation fighter and their attempt at one turned out to be a new 4th generation fighter your whole argument means nothing. Though i see your clueless anyway if you think they can just change out parts yeah that easy.By the way you do realize Russia is about 8 years away from production dont you? And you might like this quote.




The Russian prototype is "unreliable, its radar inadequate, its stealth features badly engineered,” said Indian Air Force Deputy Air Marshall S Sukumar



posted on Apr, 28 2015 @ 05:08 PM
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a reply to: Zaphod58

I agree, the "T50" includes a new chassis.

But nearly all it's features can be added to the SU27 family.

kinda like:
www.carid.com...

They have been building all the features on the Su27/SU30/SU35? chassis

which I'd guess is probably why India is cutting back on T50s - the SUXX chassis upgrades are now good enough that the minor stealth improvements you get from changing the chassis don't justify buying a load of whole new planes.

they call it "4++".
70% (obviously a guess) of stealth is just the materials the shell is made of and it's shape (the rest being what's underneath it)

which brings us back to the question at hand.
can the patriot take out Russian 4++ generation planes
with most of the stealth of 5th gen
super cruise
thrust vectoring
etc.

business insider seems to imply it cant
www.businessinsider.com...

but there is nothing I can see addressing this question.
Unlike the russian radar systems. which categorically detect 5th gen stealth, as if it was a 4th gen plane.
edit on 28-4-2015 by mSparks43 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 28 2015 @ 06:01 PM
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a reply to: mSparks43

No, they can't. Over 80% of stealth is shape. A fourth generation fighter doesn't have that shape to start with. It's all flat angles and 90 degree bends. Actually LOOK at a fifth Gen plane compared to even a 4++. There's a huge difference between them. I can take a fourth generation plane and put RAM all over it, that doesn't make it stealthy. All you did was put lipstick on a pig.

As for radar, yes PAC-3 Patriot can handle a 4++ aircraft. Because it's still a fourth generation aircraft. That article didn't even mention the Patriot.

And as for radar, you should never believe everything the manufacturer says until it's actually used in the real world. It's never been used against a full up stealthed aircraft, so there's no way to know it works.
edit on 4/28/2015 by Zaphod58 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 28 2015 @ 06:39 PM
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a reply to: Zaphod58

www.highbeam.com...

In the paper, entitled "Stealth Technology: Fundamental and Applied Problems," Russian stealth researchers claim to have reduced the head-on radar cross-section (RCS) of a Sukhoi (Moscow, Russia) Su-35 fighter by an order of magnitude, halving the range at which hostile radars can detect it. The research group has performed more than 100 hours of testing on a reduced-RCS Su-35. According to other reports, the ITAE has demonstrated similar technology on a MiG-21bis, and it has been offered to India as part of a MiG-21 upgrade package. Similar modifications have been made to Western aircraft (such as the Have Glass package developed for the F-16), but it is not known whether they claim the same level of performance. …


As for radar.
Not seen much in the way of any manufacturer stuff tbh.

Just what I know they have had out of the labs back in the 90s, and what I've seen since then.
mostly because the russian guys were working on it before the web got unicode, and I had a bit more interaction with them.

they are a long way ahead in every aspect, simply because their average engineers are so much more advanced than even the best in the west.

Most inspirational for me was an old guy who led a mathematics for information systems course.

There is nothing quite like watching someone correct a complex calculation on a blackboard because he knows his 19 times table off the top of his head.

he was part of the Russian space program
which they did without computers
everything was calculated by hand on pen and paper.

Now they have serious hardware and the money to back it up I have no doubt in their capabilities.

this is the kind of picture that can be constructed (finally found one!!, even if it is microwave based)


edit on 28-4-2015 by mSparks43 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 28 2015 @ 07:08 PM
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a reply to: mSparks43

Which is just an F-15SE. It's not stealth. A fourth generation aircraft can't be made stealthy.

As for the radar, Russia has always had good engineers. They don't have the production to back it up. They haven't for years. That still doesn't change that paper and real world don't always conjoin. On paper an F-15 can't fly minus a wing. In the real world it did.



posted on Apr, 28 2015 @ 08:12 PM
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a reply to: Zaphod58

That's a whole other discussion (I'm learning first hand how untrue most of the western media is about the east first hand these days, not quite ready to talk about that yet.)

They are selling and delivering, on a massive scale, which is more than can be said for the F22 or F35 programs.

And I think, is the point.

"stealth", 4++ or 5
doesn't offer much if any advantage over "new" equipment.

And the US has run out of countries to invade that don't have new equipment.
So either they stop invading and start shrinking
Or they continue invasions and start loosing.

In fact, I think the last 11 years already shows them loosing.
->Iraq, Libya and Syria hardly being "wins"



posted on Apr, 28 2015 @ 08:31 PM
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a reply to: mSparks43

Send a letter to India and ask them directly. They will most likely tell you the same as zaphod is telling you but i doubt you would believe it even from them.



posted on Apr, 28 2015 @ 08:33 PM
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a reply to: mSparks43

The F-22 was never for export. As for production issues, the Su-34 is a great example. I'm not going by the media when I say that. I'm talking about sources that quote Russian commanders talking about it.

Fifth generation offers a huge advantage. For someone that says they're not an expert you sure do make definitive statements like you are.

As for your earlier picture, ten years ago stealth had advanced into the microwave range, and was moving beyond that into multi frequency and beyond.



posted on Apr, 28 2015 @ 08:39 PM
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a reply to: yuppa

They asked for your credit card number.



posted on Apr, 28 2015 @ 08:45 PM
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a reply to: Zaphod58

F22 was never bought.
Doesnt mean they wouldn't want to sell it.
Just means there was zero interest from buyers for it.

ok. so whats this "huge advantage".
because the 4++ can see them on the radar. and have a huge numbers advantage.

Did you watch that guy doing attack simulations in the aus documetary I posted earlier.

of 250 odd F35s that went out
only and handfull came home, virtual total annihilation.
edit on 28-4-2015 by mSparks43 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 28 2015 @ 08:50 PM
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a reply to: mSparks43

I see your willing to live in ignorance and propaganda instead of educate yourself to the real world. You live in a self fulfilling fantasy good luck with that.



posted on Apr, 28 2015 @ 08:54 PM
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a reply to: dragonridr

After careful consideration of your rational argument.

I conclude you concede my points.



posted on Apr, 28 2015 @ 09:22 PM
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a reply to: mSparks43

Until the F-35, stealth was not for export under government regulations. Both Japan and Australia expressed interest in buying them, and got classified briefings on it before the Senate killed the deals.

Once again you're making it up as you go. Anything can see stealth on radar, eventually. A 4++ doesn't have any huge advantage over any other fourth Gen. The Typhoon is a 4.5 and can only see a Raptor at long short range using one of the most advanced AESA radars in production.

Fifth generation is not just stealth. It's sensor fusion and communications that fourth generation can't do. Advanced fifth generation power sources barely have enough power to run all the sensors and equipment on board. Even a 4++ doesn't have the power to do what a fifth Gen does.

Yes I saw that study. Did you bother to actually study it, like I did, or just say it proves the F-35 sucks and run with it?

Under that scenario, they had internal fuel and weapons only, limited tanker support, no AWACS support, almost no fighter cover, against an OPFOR that outnumbered them 2 or 3 to 1, with AWACS, and every other advantage. There was no way for the F-35 to do anything but hey slaughtered.



posted on Apr, 28 2015 @ 09:27 PM
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a reply to: Zaphod58

What's so special about sensor fusion and communications that can't be fitted to a 4th gen airframe?

Especially when it's India that leads that particular field.

AIUI, thats how 4++ sees the F35.
They take the distributed passive radar that makes up the likes of the russian sams. put it in the air, and integrate it with the aircrafts systems.
edit on 28-4-2015 by mSparks43 because: (no reason given)




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