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So... I'm a progressive... You can regress all you like.

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posted on Apr, 15 2015 @ 03:05 PM
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a reply to: beezzer

The problem with government is people. Nearly every government looks perfect on paper. Communism, everyone is taken care of, everyone pitches in, everyone gives and receives and equal share. But people corrupt it.

Democracy, Freedom above all, the people elect level-headed representatives to vote on the big issues, while smaller votes are held on local levels for local issues. But people corrupt it.

It's a damned if you do/don't scenario. Without government, we're left with anarchy, and anarchy is bad. Anarchy only lasts long enough for a despot to come to power. With government, there's always, without fail, corruption. Corruption, bloat, pork, etc.




posted on Apr, 15 2015 @ 03:05 PM
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originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: burdman30ott6
I mean, that's fine if someone wants to live in a cabin in the woods and trap/hunt for their own food. I just don't believe that everyone wants that, nor should be forced to accept that way of life. People choosing to shun society can do that


Not really... (and I should know) You still gotta deal with Big Brother and his grubby hands constantly either grabbing stuff out of your pocket, grabbing your junk when you travel, or otherwise fiddling, always fiddling with things. I swear the government acts like a teenage boy that's just hit puberty.



posted on Apr, 15 2015 @ 03:06 PM
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originally posted by: MystikMushroom
Yay! No government, no organization, no structure, no society.


All I want from my government is an infrastructure and to provide for our common defense. I support the Constitution and States rights regarding the creation of law. But when we borrow from China to give to other nations that hate us or can stand on their own or bloat our government through the addition of useless Agencies and Departments that duplicate and complicate I get dizzy with contempt.



posted on Apr, 15 2015 @ 03:06 PM
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originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: beezzer
Personally I think America is to large as it is. I think America needs to be broken up in the several autonomous countries. The needs of someone in Georgia aren't anything like the needs of someone in Alaska. We're kidding ourselves if we think a centralized government can somehow effectively administer to these disparate geographical locations.


COMMON GROUND
We've found it!



posted on Apr, 15 2015 @ 03:07 PM
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a reply to: burdman30ott6

$1 trillion in welfare each year from the federal government to pay for federal and state programs. Actually, its closer to 800bil...but whatever.

That same amount is spent in finding novel ways to kill foreigners, and then deploying to enact those novel methods.

For some context, free healthcare ("Universal Healthcare") would cost about this much (estimates range from $400bil-$1100bil)



posted on Apr, 15 2015 @ 03:08 PM
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a reply to: burdman30ott6

I don't know...there are a lot of places (at least here) where you'd be pretty much left alone for years if you wanted to. You may run across the odd surveyor, but that's about it. I bet someone experienced in survival could live off the land and never be heard of for years.

Don't look at me to try it...I've never had any luck with snares.



posted on Apr, 15 2015 @ 03:10 PM
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originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: beezzer
Personally I think America is to large as it is. I think America needs to be broken up in the several autonomous countries. The needs of someone in Georgia aren't anything like the needs of someone in Alaska. We're kidding ourselves if we think a centralized government can somehow effectively administer to these disparate geographical locations.


COMMON GROUND
We've found it!
Isn't that what states were originally intended for? One central government for the commonwealth of the nation as whole who handles things like national defense, federal law, etc. The states are left to mostly govern themselves. At least, that's how it WAS. Now the fed basically controls everything. The problem goes again to people.



posted on Apr, 15 2015 @ 03:10 PM
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a reply to: ScientificRailgun



It's a damned if you do/don't scenario. Without government, we're left with anarchy, and anarchy is bad. Anarchy only lasts long enough for a despot to come to power. With government, there's always, without fail, corruption. Corruption, bloat, pork, etc.

A big problem is the Federal government taking the biggest chunk of tax dollars and trickling it down to state and local governments with strings attached. Each step has waste, fraud, payoffs and graft.
I would rather the bigger chunk be collected and spent by local government as the voters in each locality see fit. My local government collects the trash and provides for police, water and sewer. They actually show me tangible returns for the tax dollars.



posted on Apr, 15 2015 @ 03:10 PM
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a reply to: MystikMushroom




I hear a lot of people talking about no government, but I'm trying to actually picture it in my mind. I don't think we'd have self-driving cars or space probes to Pluto without governments. I don't think we'd have fMRI machines to diagnose cancers as quickly, or have sequenced the human genome without some form of organized set of rules for people to live by.

I mean, that's fine if someone wants to live in a cabin in the woods and trap/hunt for their own food. I just don't believe that everyone wants that, nor should be forced to accept that way of life. People choosing to shun society can do that, but forcing everyone to shun society is a lot less fair


We are each responsible for governing our affairs ... we are each a part of a community ... People would still invent things and could share those ideas with their other communities ... there could be co operation ... we could have it all if we wish so long as there is a balance ...

However what real progress requires is a different way of thinking ... Independence but with responsibility ... co operation ... tolerance ... allowing each to reach their full potential .... caring for one another ... a pipe dream perhaps but I am a dreamer and so are many others ... Something has to change and all we can do is be the change we wish to see ...



posted on Apr, 15 2015 @ 03:12 PM
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a reply to: burdman30ott6



See, I ain't such a bad guy...

I've been putting a lot of thought into that idea as of late, actually. Newly formed countries in the middle of the US would have to touch the Mississippi so they could have ocean access for shipping.

There could be a similar defense pact made between the "New Americas" similar to NATO. I'm also envisioning each country keeping their own form of resource-backed currency, backed by the most valuable commodity they export. The new countries could have an "exchange" or "clearing house" where they exchange currency.

I'm just beginning to form how this would all work.



posted on Apr, 15 2015 @ 03:16 PM
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a reply to: ScientificRailgun

The thing is, the individual states aren't nearly as wealthy or powerful as an actual country. If you were to group them by geographical region, they would have enough resources and capital to pretty much take care of themselves.

As it stands right now, many states can't stand on their own WITHOUT Federal assistance. If they were to join up with 3-5 neighboring states and pool resources, they probably could.

This would end the federal stranglehold, and allow entire geographically similar areas to govern themselves with a LOT more autonomy and accountability to their people.

I don't think my idea is to whacky...I have a feeling we might see this happen in the next 200 years.



posted on Apr, 15 2015 @ 03:16 PM
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a reply to: MystikMushroom

How would one feasibly split it up though? The southeast would most certainly want to be their own country. Hell, Texas would want a country ALL to itself. The northeast would fare alright, but Midwest/North would struggle, especially if there's a sudden water/shipping lane dispute with the southeast/texas. The Southwest would struggle if it didn't include California for Ocean access, but who the hell WANTS California?



posted on Apr, 15 2015 @ 03:19 PM
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a reply to: ScientificRailgun

A LOT of good debate would come about if this idea took off. We'd all have to ask tough questions and really get to know our country better.



posted on Apr, 15 2015 @ 03:24 PM
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originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: ScientificRailgun

A LOT of good debate would come about if this idea took off. We'd all have to ask tough questions and really get to know our country better.
That much is very true. I'm sure it could be done, I'm just asking questions that are sure to come up. There's also the matter of immigration, and travel between countries. Is the southwest left to it's own discretion when it comes to protecting their southern border, or do all the nations chip in for the common good? How is travel handled between the nations? How are borders enforced between nations?



posted on Apr, 15 2015 @ 03:30 PM
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I think there would be a central location for disputes and treaties to be signed...but it would NEVER be permanently inhabited by any organization. The buildings would be very modest and only be used when the countries needed to come together and discuss trade, travel, defense, ect...

I also think to provide for true autonomy of these new countries, no laws or policies that effect all the new countries could be laid down unless there was a 100% agreement. Anything agreed to by all the countries would also have a life-span (say 10-20 years). After that time is up, it would take a 75% majority to keep whatever over-arching agreement was made by all the countries. This would (I would hope) maintain the sovereignty of these countries and keep any kind of "Federal" government from gaining foothold.
edit on 15-4-2015 by MystikMushroom because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 15 2015 @ 03:36 PM
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originally posted by: ScientificRailgun
Isn't that what states were originally intended for? One central government for the commonwealth of the nation as whole who handles things like national defense, federal law, etc. The states are left to mostly govern themselves. At least, that's how it WAS. Now the fed basically controls everything. The problem goes again to people.


Lincoln deserves about half of the blame on why that failed with FDR receiving the other half... At least Lincoln's heart was in the right place. FDR, on the other hand, crippled the real America far worse than polio crippled him.



posted on Apr, 15 2015 @ 03:54 PM
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originally posted by: ScientificRailgun
a reply to: MystikMushroom

How would one feasibly split it up though? The southeast would most certainly want to be their own country. Hell, Texas would want a country ALL to itself. The northeast would fare alright, but Midwest/North would struggle, especially if there's a sudden water/shipping lane dispute with the southeast/texas. The Southwest would struggle if it didn't include California for Ocean access, but who the hell WANTS California?


We are a country. We just pretend to be a state for the highway $$$




posted on Apr, 15 2015 @ 04:07 PM
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a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

After meeting some folks from Texas...I can confidently say there is no point aruging otherwise


EDIT: But, you're still our little brother...

edit on 15-4-2015 by MystikMushroom because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 15 2015 @ 04:13 PM
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Back on topic:

I think an individual can be "progressive" and still have conservative/traditional values. I can still be an advocate of progressing man's potential, while still valuing self-reliance and personal responsibility. I don't think these ideas are mutually exclusive.



posted on Apr, 15 2015 @ 04:13 PM
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a reply to: MystikMushroom

Except we can utilize our state 12 months of the year.

Besides, all good Texans know that Alaska is just far North Panhandle area.




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