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So... I'm a progressive... You can regress all you like.

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posted on Apr, 15 2015 @ 07:30 AM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66
Charlie, I've stayed out of your thread because I was sure you could handle the nay-sayers. Great effort on your part, and it's good to see someone's evidence-based views gaining traction and confidence.

I find it disheartening that the overall message against progressivism is the acceptance of the inequitable status quo, the innate selfishness of humanity, and the lack of aspiration for our best and highest selves.

But oh well. Good thread.


A great example of the ego i was talking about.

What is "our best and highest selves"? How do we achieve that? Does progressivism remove any desire for the selfishness of humanity? A political ideal really has that kind of power?

Ill say this about it: the moment we can find a group of people fit to lead humanity to their "best and highest selves", there might be some folks getting on board. but from where I stand, no such animal exists.

Lets be honest: if you removed government corruption, you would do more for equality than has ever been done.




posted on Apr, 15 2015 @ 08:33 AM
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a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

But you must understand change and progress are not the same thing...

If I'm to quit drinking, I don't switch from vodka to whiskey and call it progression, it's just a change...

I need to put the bottle down.




What is human nature aside from what is nurtured from young...

The hate and animosity fueled by media and indoctrination of youth by our own parents because of what they were fed is nurture, not nature...


We came into this world with the same rights...


Over time they've been eroded...

By change, not progress.


Progress is an end to slavery, civil rights movements fighting for equality, women being able to vote... Etc.

Change starts in Congress/Parliament... And ends with fat pockets for some.
Progression starts at home... And ends with well nurtured children who become beautiful adults.



posted on Apr, 15 2015 @ 08:35 AM
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a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

I know what you mean Texan! It's really hard to talk about hopefulness in the face of the gritty realities of daily life. Any language one chooses to use sounds incredibly ... well ... idealistic.

And that's because it is idealistic ... but I wonder, would you say that it is more a function of egotism to say "I believe that there is good and bad in every human, and I want to work toward the better both in myself and for others"? Or merely to say "We're all selfish and we'll always be that way.'

Progressivism as I understand it is more of a direction or a trend than a given set of agenda items at any time. And yes, I do believe we can agree on somethings that are better for humans than others ... good health, enough to eat and drink, a warm, dry, and safe place to live, the opportunity to work and produce for our lives, equity before the laws of the land ... yes, I believe we can all agree those are higher and better than sickness, hunger, homelessness and unfair laws.

Progressivism wants to move toward rather than stay put or to go backward, in a very simplistic way of looking at it.

Texan, I'll say the same think you said to me ... the moment you find a group of people fit to lead that can remove government corruption in all of its forms, you can sign me up ... pronto!

Aside from that, I'll just keep plugging along, trying to do the best for myself and others that I can.




posted on Apr, 15 2015 @ 08:35 AM
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a reply to: Gryphon66

Thanks buddy.

I did get a little disheartened at the egocentricity of focusing on one Nation above a worldwide progress...
And some of the Nazi examples that really had nothing to do with progress but State worship and vilification of the different...
That's regression imo.


Never expected 12 pages though so it's been difficult to keep up.

Especially since I'm back on the mental ward I haven't been on as much.


Thanks again for the kind words.



posted on Apr, 15 2015 @ 08:55 AM
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a reply to: CharlieSpeirs


Human nature and human nurture are 2 very different things. Human nature derives from the series of neurochemical reactions that are typical in the neural framework of a human. That is what human behavior is. An example: your dog cannot lie about its emotions. When its happy, its tail wags. When its shamed, its tail tucks. Humans, on the other hand, do not exhibit this behavior due to the nature of our neural framework and the neurochemicals that drive it.

In the words of the ancients: as above, so below. The behavior is a result of a chain of events within the confines of a specific biological design. The difficult part is the complexity of those neurochemicals and neural framework, and the even greater complexity that results from their response to the environment (right down to determining epigenetic/genetic changes).

Something I say often: you cannot blame a snake for biting you. Its just what snakes do.

RE:


Progress is an end to slavery, civil rights movements fighting for equality, women being able to vote... Etc.


This isn't the first time in human history that women and varied races had equality. So ..progress towards what? Nothing new under the sun.
edit on 4/15/2015 by bigfatfurrytexan because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 15 2015 @ 09:06 AM
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All things must progress or regress ...

Now if there was time in Humanity's history ... when we were in accord with nature and each other ... where co operation superseded competition ... where each life was valued and at liberty and the Golden Rule applied ... where national boundary's were but geographical features ... where money was not required and each contributed their skills and aptitudes for the benefit of the whole ... etc etc ... if such a time ever existed then I am a regressive ... but until such a time I am a progressive



posted on Apr, 15 2015 @ 09:09 AM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

And that's because it is idealistic ... but I wonder, would you say that it is more a function of egotism to say "I believe that there is good and bad in every human, and I want to work toward the better both in myself and for others"? Or merely to say "We're all selfish and we'll always be that way.'


I love the idea of working to be an example to those around me. I can't say I am the best example....but as far as honest, hard working, friendly, and fair...i do alright. Its that whole "be the change you want to see in the world" thing.

But int he context discussed here, you are referring to political solutions as opposed to personal. That I have an issue with. Especially as it pertains to taking any additional monies from me to fund any "progress". Now...if they can shuffle the decks a bit and move funding into areas that are beneficial to everyone (like infrastructure and leisure), im all for that.

If we are talking global equality, there isn't a solution that doesn't involve first crippling any military advantage across the world. And its because of human nature. This is where that "idealism" comes in.



Progressivism as I understand it is more of a direction or a trend than a given set of agenda items at any time. And yes, I do believe we can agree on somethings that are better for humans than others ... good health, enough to eat and drink, a warm, dry, and safe place to live, the opportunity to work and produce for our lives, equity before the laws of the land ... yes, I believe we can all agree those are higher and better than sickness, hunger, homelessness and unfair laws.

Progressivism wants to move toward rather than stay put or to go backward, in a very simplistic way of looking at it.

Texan, I'll say the same think you said to me ... the moment you find a group of people fit to lead that can remove government corruption in all of its forms, you can sign me up ... pronto!

Aside from that, I'll just keep plugging along, trying to do the best for myself and others that I can.



If progressivism is nothing more than removing laws that are unfair....again, sign me up. But a good example of progressivism that I see is ACA.

How progressive is it to go from no insurance, to having a law that requires that you buy insurance? A law that has forced a product on people who can't afford it...that is progressivism? Because it feels more like cronyism. If all progressivism amounts to is creating laws that force you to purchase a product....i ain't down with that.

True "progress" (in the context being used here) would be to nationalize healthcare across the board. Then that homeless guy hacking up his lung while he talks to the voices would actually have a chance for some kind of care.



posted on Apr, 15 2015 @ 09:25 AM
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a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Well, I'd wager based on what I've seen from you "here" that you're probably ahead of 90% of humanity.

Yes, progressivism (as I understand it) applies to political matters as well as personal.

I really don't understand the modern obsession with "taking money from me" ... no offense to you. Government has ALWAYS "taken money" to operate on. Every government, every where, every time. In the US since 1913 there has been an income tax. I don't know for certain, but I think that means that for the entireity of the life of everyone here, and very likely the lives of our parents and even grandparents, there has been an income tax in this country, and that source of revenue powers our government.

I just don't understand that "one-to-one" perception that tax dollars paid by you or me go directly to fund a welfare check, or a bomber, or a drone, or a CIA torture chamber.

Taxes reflect the way in which we all work together to achieve. DO I love everything the Government (Federal, State and local) does? HECK NO! Do I think that the Government is the only solution to all our problems? No.

Do I think that the Government, properly functioning, can utilize the resources that we all provide to maintain the physical infrastructure as well as the human-based infrastructure? I.e. our population, the People ourselves? Yes I do.

Charities only help a chosen few. Churches only help those who believe or pretend to. Individual giving has severe limits.

Specifically, I do not believe that Progressives approve of the the ACA as it was enacted. It has, however, brought good to many. If we could get some of those reasonable people you mentioned to Washington, we could fix the darned thing.

I absolutely agree with you about nationalized health care. TO me, that's infrastructure, fundamental to "the general Welfare" of the People.

I really think you and I agree on everything but terminology for the most part, Texan. At least on this.



posted on Apr, 15 2015 @ 09:49 AM
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I have to agree with BFFT.
The ego part is correct.

We must remember that Hitler viewed what he was doing in the 1930's and 1940's as 'progress'.

I like freedom that doesn't step on anyone's toes.



posted on Apr, 15 2015 @ 10:06 AM
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a reply to: butcherguy

I like freedom too, Butcherguy.

The kind of freedom that includes EVERYONE not just an elite few or favored/majority groups.

(That's more a facet of liberalism than progressivism probably.)

The fact that you are invoking reductio ad Hitlerum says a lot, doesn't it?

Henry Ford thought he was making progress too.

As did Thomas Edison, Jonas Salk, Albert Einstein, Paul Winchell, and thousands of others who have worked for human betterment.

You don't get to make progress a dirty word for anyone but yourself.
edit on 10Wed, 15 Apr 2015 10:10:59 -050015p102015466 by Gryphon66 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 15 2015 @ 10:06 AM
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a reply to: Gryphon66

Laws should only be created to affect government, not people. The laws to govern people are pretty simple: don't hurt others, don't steal from others. Doesn't seem to difficult.

As it relates to taxes...you nailed it: if we have good governance to spend the tax dollars appropriately, none of this would even be a discussion.

RE: Thomas Edison and other "greats" of the industrial revolution period....i couldn't disagree more. Many of todays problems start at the feed of Mr. Edison.
edit on 4/15/2015 by bigfatfurrytexan because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 15 2015 @ 10:09 AM
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a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

We see everyday, sadly, that what seems to be innate "don't hurt, don't steal, don't kill" in most of us is not in a few of us.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "laws should only affect government."



posted on Apr, 15 2015 @ 10:11 AM
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a reply to: Gryphon66

A law is meant as a constraint.

The only party in need of any real constraint is government. If we are looking to enact more laws, then those laws should be targeted and limiting what government can do, and narrowly defining the rest. Crap like The Patriot Act, Fast and Furious/Mayan Jaguar, Iran/Contra....none of that should even be possible.

I would say that, in light of the mess that the above has created in this hemisphere, the only party in need of have any additional constraints or demands placed on it would be government.



posted on Apr, 15 2015 @ 10:17 AM
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a reply to: Gryphon66
No, when your ilk (self proclaimed 'progressives') make the quality of my life worse in order to push your progress, you are stepping on my toes.

You are no different than Henry Ford, Hitler or Margaret Sanger when you affect my life negatively by pushing what you think is better for everyone. That is the point. You have an opinion. When you force it, one size fits all on me.... you are no better than any of the bad guys in history.

ETA:
Playing this card (Reductio ad Hitlerum) indicates that the remark stung you, since you are not stupid and see how you are just as guilty as any other that sees fit to rule over someone else simply because your beliefs and opinions are 'better than anyone else'.


edit on bu302015-04-15T10:21:07-05:0010America/ChicagoWed, 15 Apr 2015 10:21:07 -050010u15 by butcherguy because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 15 2015 @ 10:18 AM
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a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Government is composed by laws. In this country, ideally, the government works by and through the will of the People.

We make government, literally. We elect officials at every level. We get what we allow to happen.

Now, again, that's idealism. In the gritty real world, money and power are in control of government and everything else, really.

The focus of restraint should be on the exercise of power against the welfare of the People.

Wherever and whenever, however, and whoever seeks to work against Us.

Everything you referred to as composing "the mess above" is not normal functions of government, but are, instead prime examples of aforementioned government CORRUPTION, that is, the will and power of a few being brought to bear on the will and power (and well-being) of the Many or of the People.



posted on Apr, 15 2015 @ 10:22 AM
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originally posted by: butcherguy
a reply to: Gryphon66
No, when your ilk (self proclaimed 'progressives') make the quality of my life worse in order to push your progress, you are stepping on my toes.

You are no different than Henry Ford, Hitler or Margaret Sanger when you affect my life negatively by pushing what you think is better for everyone. That is the point. You have an opinion. When you force it, one size fits all on me.... you are no better than any of the bad guys in history.



My "ilk"? What you mean your fellow American citizens? You're not going to get rid of us no matter how much you'd like to.

No one has made the quality of your life "worse" ... sounds like sour grapes to me. Sounds like you're setting aside that vaunted reactionary "personal responsibility" and laying your problems off on someone else.

I'm not different from Hitler when I say what I believe to be true and work for what I believe in??? Well, sorry I don't fit into your acceptable regressive mould, but frankly, I'll continue to speak and act as I see fit. That's my right as an American.

You keep sitting in your corner and spitting at people blaming others for your own problems. Me and "my ilk" will keep working to make the world a better place for all of us ... including people like you.




posted on Apr, 15 2015 @ 10:33 AM
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When the term "progressives" is used politically and/or socially, I think of lemmings. That is what they remind me of..."hey, I don't know where we're going, but let's get there fast and recklessly! OOPS."

I prefer a more thoughtful and calculated progression based on intelligent analysis of our foundational structures with a clearer picture of just where we might be heading.



posted on Apr, 15 2015 @ 10:38 AM
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originally posted by: queenofswords
When the term "progressives" is used politically and/or socially, I think of lemmings. That is what they remind me of..."hey, I don't know where we're going, but let's get there fast and recklessly! OOPS."

I prefer a more thoughtful and calculated progression based on intelligent analysis of our foundational structures with a clearer picture of just where we might be heading.



Any specific real world examples we could all consider of what you're talking about (on either side)?

Or did you just want to weigh in and slam Progressives?



posted on Apr, 15 2015 @ 10:40 AM
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a reply to: Gryphon66



You keep sitting in your corner and spitting at people blaming others for your own problems. Me and "my ilk" will keep working to make the world a better place for all of us ... including people like you.

Who comes across as an angry person here?
Again, your ideas and feelings tell you that progress is to make everyone march to the beat of your drum. No room for anyone to even tell you what you are like in others eyes.
How very sensitive and accepting of other's thoughts you progressives are.



posted on Apr, 15 2015 @ 10:45 AM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66
Me and "my ilk" will keep working to make the world a better place for all of us ... including people like you.


Who gets to determine what would be a "better place"?

You?



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