It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

So... I'm a progressive... You can regress all you like.

page: 10
39
<< 7  8  9    11  12  13 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Apr, 14 2015 @ 10:16 AM
link   

originally posted by: butcherguy
Should progressives be accepting and understanding of people that have differing opinions and beliefs?


Opinions and beliefs? Absolutely! I accept that others have different beliefs and opinions. But when they ACT on their beliefs in a way that steps on other people's rights and autonomy, I do not accept the ACTIONS of denying someone else their rights, for example.

Great thread, Charlie. I wish I had seen it earlier.




posted on Apr, 14 2015 @ 11:54 AM
link   
A big part of the problem with all this Progressive, Liberal, Conservative, etc ... bickering is that I think most people who label themselves as such don't really know what the words mean.

Most people today (I said most, don't get all insulted if it doesn't apply to you) that call themselves progressive, or liberal since they are essentially interchangeable today, aren't. The true meaning of the words have become bastardized and those who are leaders or public figures which claim these titles are not what they claim. These are the people who shape the public understanding of the terms. The same could be said of many claiming to be conservative.

Regardless of what the true meaning of the term Progressive is, when used in todays political climate names like Hillary Clinton, Harry Reid, and Nancy Pelosi come to mind. The worst of the worst, IMO. People who call themselves progressive, whether they are or not, are the ones that always seem to want to tell me how to live, how to think, how to act, what to eat and drink, what words I can say, and generally want to dictate all aspects of everyones life. And, they never stop. Give an inch, they want another. Give some more, it's not enough.

They can give their opinion all they want, it's when they try to legislate it all is when the problems arise. Also, when you peel back the curtain rarely do they practice what they preach.

Most people want the same thing, and that is to be able to live their life without much interference. I don't see much non interference from those calling themsleves progressive, or liberal.



posted on Apr, 14 2015 @ 12:03 PM
link   
a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

This is what's wrong with being a socialist. You say, screw you to people's intrinsic rights, because every body else MUST come first before the individual. You take away any personal responsibility and entrust the untrustworthy with all control and power over which they shouldn't have control and power over.

It is completely adverse to our system of government which is predicated on the truth that government in any form comes from the consent of the governed.

You cannot have government without that consent. Socialism is by definition lacking consent as it takes the individuals concerns and tosses them to the way side in favor of society's general goodwill. That again comes to the point of who determines what is best for society?

No, the only way that socialism can work is with limited central goverment and VERY localised government where people are free to go elsewhere if that society's GOALS are adverse to their own.

The very nature of a nation being socialist is adverse to the American way. If you want to be socialist, go where it already exists, I will fight you tooth and nail from corrupting my country into that epitomy of control and anti-liberty.

Jaden



posted on Apr, 14 2015 @ 12:09 PM
link   
Why is it that collectivists always prosecute people as individuals when something goes wrong with a collective agency?




posted on Apr, 14 2015 @ 12:10 PM
link   

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: butcherguy
Should progressives be accepting and understanding of people that have differing opinions and beliefs?


Opinions and beliefs? Absolutely! I accept that others have different beliefs and opinions. But when they ACT on their beliefs in a way that steps on other people's rights and autonomy, I do not accept the ACTIONS of denying someone else their rights, for example.

Great thread, Charlie. I wish I had seen it earlier.

I agree completely!
That is a good answer... the right answer.



posted on Apr, 14 2015 @ 12:32 PM
link   
We've reached a point in our society where labels are supposed to define a person.

If you say that someone is a liberal or conservative you are supposed to believe that they believe the dogma of the liberal or conservative party 100%. I'd also like to add that liberals try to define conservatives in a negative light and conservatives try to define liberals in a negative light.

I think that we need to spend less time trying to label people and more time thinking. My views on subjects don't conform to any one political party. I see many positions from both major parties that have merit and also those that are not going to work.

We also need to open a dialogue between people to try to get our county going again.



posted on Apr, 14 2015 @ 01:14 PM
link   
a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

When you put the rights of the masses before individual rights failure is the the only option. This is true for governments.....schools......And even your home life.



Progressives ideals are failure. That is why when people grow older these ideals fall under the weight of realism. What is born out of that realism is conservative values. Progressive ideals like fairness.....tolerance......bringing people together using force.......This is all pie sky. Leprechauns riding unicorns on rainbows made out of fairy wings.



Look at the porgressive utopia that was Nazi Germany. Hitler took great inspiration from the early progressive movement in the US. He was a man of the people promoting the rights of the masses......Look how that worked out. The gas chambers at the start were for people who could not put towards the greater good anymore not Jews.
edit on 14-4-2015 by SubTruth because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 14 2015 @ 02:29 PM
link   
a reply to: butcherguy
One of the most difficult things for me is dealing with folks that believe. Once they become entrenched in their comfort zone, they can not be extricated by anything less than a violent (not necessarily physical) event.
They are willfully ignorant and perfectly satisfied to be so. There is no0discussion where they do not fall back to 'faith, feelings and belief'. How can they not? Their center is based on these things.
It is literally impossible for them to modify or abandon what they think is the core to themselves.
This is also true when you bring up controversial studies which indicate that what is accepted as 'truths' by other political sectors. (progressive, liberal, neo-cons, etc.)
They would ALL rather think that factoids should be accepted to fit an agenda that defends their ego structure. It's understandable. Scientists, sociologists, economists, SC Justices are just as guilty.
My thoughts on this have been, ANYTIME WE ARE UNWILLING TO ADMIT TO OUR IGNORANCE WE FAIL.
I have been forced to quail before my lack of understanding and lack of relevant information multiple times when in active discussion. I ATTEMPT to recognize my weaknesses in that we can not know everything about anything. To do so I have begun (finally) to have positions that I invest nothing of myself (I fail at this too!) in. They are just a recitation of possibly relevant facts (as close as I can tell) and the extraction of meaning from them. The facts are not MINE. The derivations are but I try to maintain objectivity when I review them to see if any relevancy, relationships and conclusions can be drawn from them.
I try desperately to not believe, hold faith in or feel in analysis of an issue. I do not define myself as my positions can shift.
I do adhere to certain principles which were generated by study. I think it is useful to have a healthy, burgeoning middles class, that TPTB consider us as their chattels, that conspiracies exist, that charity works better in most situations, that we will either succeed as a species or be eliminated by remorseless Universal processes. There's more but I can TELL you WHY I think these things are worthwhile without resorting to biases, nebulosities, commonly held ideations and lastly illogic.

It is why I could be branded as a progressive. I want to adapt to the real world and make it better. Dealing with the fanatic fantasist is a meaningless exercise in most cases. They don't want change, many don't need change (I'm doing quite well, thank you very much!) and they are perfectly suited to their social setting.
They are stupid, smug and firmly rooted in falsities which only further their limited ambitions. Profound trauma can modify them but that is about it.
It is too bad that they have so much sway. They interfere in every aspect of actually improving the world and worse of all to them this is GOOD thing.



posted on Apr, 14 2015 @ 02:52 PM
link   
a reply to: Masterjaden

Perhaps what you require to understand that ALL governments are prone to serving their self-interest is that every grouping does. This come about in algae blankets, lion prides, religions.....just about anything if it promotes survival.

In a proper government (my standard), transparency is paramount. All of the ills you mention or haven't time to consider or raise, can be alleviated by the ability to actually see what a body, that is supposedly serving us, actually proposes and acts on.

The problem is deviousness and lack of representation in the processing of social contracts. We must have insight into what is occurring and is planned to make a determination if that is where we wish to go. Socialism has many strengths as a provider of social goods. What many do not (or choose not to) understand is that governments can be the most efficient means of delivering those goods.
Plenty of research PROVES this. Yet it will not matter to folks such as yourself because you have emotional agendas that MUST be served. You need not be sensible because you are being infringed upon and that knee spasms mightily in response.
I have a friend, who is smarter than me, who has always felt that no one could manage his money better than him. Taxes were a taking that he could not abide. In turn he will receive a retirement that will exceed the working incomes of better than 90% of the population from SS and his state.
If he had the strength of his pubic convictions, why did he not avoid those entanglements? Because he took the better deal? Ayn Rand, TPTB and the rest of the leeches who brandish their desire for independence float in the social stew like bread. They absorb as much as they can and contribute nothing.
Social co-operation is a survival trait. Most of us want us to survive and feel that banding together for GOOD things (subject to discussion) is worthwhile.
For those who think otherwise, go into the forest, the badlands, the remotest reaches and don't take your cell phones. I don't want to hear from you when your personal SHTF.



posted on Apr, 14 2015 @ 02:52 PM
link   
a reply to: Masterjaden


edit on TuesdaypmTue, 14 Apr 2015 14:55:26 -050022015 by largo because: Duped as in double posted



posted on Apr, 14 2015 @ 02:54 PM
link   
a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

What exactly is a progrssive?


What does that mean?



posted on Apr, 14 2015 @ 02:57 PM
link   

originally posted by: John_Rodger_Cornman
a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

What exactly is a progrssive?


What does that mean?


Social reform for progress basically...


Although the counter arguments in this thread have been compelling as to who decides what is right...

Just reading now.
Said my piece, good to hear everyone else's point of view.



posted on Apr, 14 2015 @ 03:14 PM
link   
a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Do you support state enforcement of morals?

Do you support individual liberties that conflict with your morals/creed/ideology?

Do you advocate for state control of personal expression?

Do you think the state should make everyone's life easier by taking more responsibility(over the individual) or not to be trusted at all ?



posted on Apr, 14 2015 @ 03:19 PM
link   
a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

My Condolences . It's still Not To Late to Deny Ignorance if your Mind isn't Completely Closed by Now............



posted on Apr, 14 2015 @ 03:51 PM
link   
a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Where exactly are you "progressing" to?

We already have all the things you say we "need".

I think you've just latched onto the idea but really have no sense of where it ultimately leads. You will of course dispute that we have all the things you mentioned, but it's a fact that we do.

In your mission to "progress" you and those like you have become oppressors. You actively oppress anyone who disagrees with you.

So in a very real sense, in your goal to progress you are actually regressing into what you despise most.

Do not forget the now cliche saying: "Your rights end where my feelings begin", because you want to oppress the rights of anyone who holds a different opinion than you, and most often it's these other people who are responsible for your ability to voice your opinion so freely at all.



posted on Apr, 14 2015 @ 04:00 PM
link   
I think if more Americans traveled abroad and visited other countries, we'd be better off overall as a nation.

Seeing your own country from an outside perspective, as other people of the world see it is fairly eye opening.

EDIT: Canada doesn't really count. Sure they have "Kraft Dinner" instead of "Kraft Macaroni & Cheese" and Ketchup flavored potato chips...
edit on 14-4-2015 by MystikMushroom because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 14 2015 @ 04:06 PM
link   
a reply to: MystikMushroom

Good point.

The USA is a wealthy industrialized country with a halfway functioning government. Going to a poor country with no oil exports,natural gas and no coal and no modernized industry is like night and day.

I never really understood what a "progressive" is.
edit on 14-4-2015 by John_Rodger_Cornman because: added content



posted on Apr, 14 2015 @ 05:46 PM
link   
a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

the concept of "progress" is nothing more than another outward sign of human ego.

Similar to the belief that our ancestors were troglodytes that dragged their women by the hair....just human ego. And to be "progressive" is to believe that we are steadily marching from that cave dwelling brute to some kind of utopia where man shall never want again. It was "progress" that led to imperialist notions coming out of Europe, and that subjugated the "savages" of the New World, Africa, and India.

Fact is: nothing new under the Sun. What we may call progress is just a rehashing of what was already done before. Fact also is: progress is related to creating a legal system that is, in theory, perfect for all. Problem with that: a law is only a theoretical constraint.

The biggest hurdle for "progress": human nature.

Me personally? I like the most traditional view of all: social anarchy, fiscally conservative. do what you want with you and yours, leave me and mine alone.
edit on 4/14/2015 by bigfatfurrytexan because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 14 2015 @ 07:15 PM
link   
Progressives are to progress the same as the Patriot Act is patriotic.



posted on Apr, 14 2015 @ 07:22 PM
link   
a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

The people of Sodom and Gomorrah probably thought of themselves as progressive too. That's where we're headed. Just sayin'.




top topics



 
39
<< 7  8  9    11  12  13 >>

log in

join