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Christian Bigotry

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posted on Apr, 12 2015 @ 09:35 PM
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I am writing today largely as a response to several threads that have become popular recently.

These threads deal with the historical authenticity of Jesus of Nazareth. As of this writing, the specific thread in question is ranking among the most popular on the forum.

While my personal reasons for visiting ATS are bent toward the paranormal and the political, my very first post will instead deal with this topic.

Before I begin, I would liket o give out my personal appreciation to all of the very well informed members that have rightly denounced the historical existence of this man to be the impervious mystery that it is, and likely will remain. Many of you have found resources online that are appropriately sourced and researched. Thank you all for your integrity and your efforts.

Knowing the internet community for what it is, I will not make any effort to prove anything here. You may remark on my statements as opinion only.

My education and life has been spent on the historical analysis of the ancient Near-East, and I have specialized in both the period and region where this man would have been born, lived, and died. I have both personal experience in doing ground-level research into this matter in cooperation with a major American university, and hold a degree in history from the same. My life's work has been spent practicing the skill of good and accurate research.

Now that the intro is out of the way, here is the meat and potatoes. The life of Jesus can never, and should never be proven to be real. Resources abound for you to discover the why of this. Put simply, no one contemporary to the life of Jesus felt him remarkable enough to comment on. The strangeness of this is profound enough to cast real doubt on the reality of this character, and considering that, in the past, whole branches of Chritianity have existed that held the belief that the Christ was non-corpreal, existing only as spirit, further the likelyhood that he is an invention.

But why does it matter what historians and archaeologistis think? This is the heart of my issue. A good Christian simply has faith, a major requirement in the religion for salvation. God, in the Christian teachings, does not require proof to exist, nor does he ask you as a believer to seek said proof outside of your spirit and heart. To substitute faith for facts or proof is an unbridled act of Pride, a deadly sin.

If God doesn't care what you prove about Him or His son, than what would be the point of proving that Jesus lived?

To be RIGHT, and by being 'RIGHT', proving all other religious faiths for all time false. This is a terrible, aggressive, inhumane, indecent, dishonest, and wholly corrupt act.

Find whatever truth you want, but don't ever fool yourself into thinking that you are doing something like 'proving' Jesus existed for the glory of God, for Truth, or for the health and spiritual growth of humanity. What you do is selfish, is out of pride, and is insulting by it's very effort to everyone who may be different than you. The world as God created it is wonderful and colorful, and it is a miracle jsut the way it is.

To do the research as an end to itself, to look for accuracy and truth in history is noble. To be a believer, and want to crush all other beliefs to make room for your own is an unholy terror. History opperates as a science, you find what you find, you follow clues and look for explanations. To start with a preconcieved notion corrupts the entire process, and nothing you discover can henceforth be trusted.

I appreciate that anyone would read this, and I appreciate those who would in the future avoid acts of cultural bigotry and poor research in the future.

Thank You




posted on Apr, 12 2015 @ 09:44 PM
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a reply to: Herolotus




Before I begin, I would like to give out my personal appreciation to all of the very well informed members that have rightly denounced the historical existence of this man to be the impervious mystery that it is, and likely will remain. Many of you have found resources online that are appropriately sourced and researched. Thank you all for your integrity and your efforts.



Hater, Bigot blah, blah, blah.

Why do YOU care if Christians try to address what they believe is bulls#it from these "very well informed members that have rightly denounced the existence of Jesus"?

Hell dude, were you there? 'Rightly denounced the existence" as fact. That is hilarious, I had no idea that you were an eyewitness or omnipotent. So, that means you believe something someone else had written down somewhere? Oh, yeah same here! LOL

So you are convinced that Jesus did not exist because you read it somewhere?

What drives you to bother with pressing forth with an anti-Christian agenda?

Oh, are you are one of these


www.abovetopsecret.com...




Evangelical Atheist: An evangelical atheist is one who not only believes there is no god or other supreme being, but is obsessed with convincing everyone around them to become an atheist too, usually through hard-line intolerance (the kind they accuse other religions of).

When cornered they usually try to put down their opponent's religion and bash them for 'blind faith', not realizing that their belief that there is no god is no more or less valid or provable than the other guy's belief that there is one.

Not to be confused with normal atheists/agnostics, who for the most part just don't talk about religion and accept the beliefs of those around them as their prerogative.

Evangelical atheists are particularly common on the Internet, as organized religion is generally accepted as part of 'the system' of global human society, and lately it's become cool on the Internet to hate 'the system'. Evangelical atheist usually seeks to "convert" borderline theists, often by engaging in debate with fundamentalists.



The only Bigots I have seen lately are the Anti-Christians.



The Fact that Jesus (Yeshua HaMashiach) Lived, Died, and is Risen / Alive is EVERYTHING. That is Christianity. If someone does not believe this as fact, they are not a Christian.
edit on 12-4-2015 by infolurker because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 12 2015 @ 10:00 PM
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a reply to: Herolotus

Thank you for that beautifully written, well thought out and insightful opening post. I agree with you 100%, and when I see people getting angry and hurtful, I want to, and do, mostly, remind them that belief in Jesus Christ is about faith, not fact.

However, there are a few proselytizers, who use the "creeping" tactic that's based on the premise that "IF you believe that Jesus existed".............then he was either a "mad man, a fraud or a liar".

That's why, sometimes, the debate needs to be smartly nipped in the bud.

It's all about faith, and enlightenment. Jesus was not about facts and forced obedience.



edit on 12-4-2015 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 12 2015 @ 10:00 PM
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a reply to: Herolotus

Methinks that he would push the life and times of a different religious leader will trashing Jesus.
Did he state his religious preferences, if any, are?

(I'm a non-believer in any formalized religion.)



posted on Apr, 12 2015 @ 10:37 PM
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a reply to: Herolotus

I don't think it matters when it comes to faith issues whether a person or book was 'historical fact' or not. It only matters that the truth is told - and often Truth is told in alegories.

That said, I hope you can shed some light on the history of the Middle East. I'm particularly interested in the 'mandate' period and the transition to the post WWII configuration of the area. I don't know much about how the Middle East came to be what we know today and imagine most other US citizens don't either. It wasn't taught in my school - the so called post colonial period that I learned about seemed to focus on Africa and the South Pacific.

Welcome.



posted on Apr, 12 2015 @ 10:53 PM
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a reply to: infolurker

Thank you and I appreciate your response.

Please understand that no one is threatening you, you are safe in your assertions and your belief. No one can take your faith from you.

My grievence is with those who would try to diminish or take beliefs from others. The need to prove the existence of Jesus suggests a massive lack of confidence, and indeed a lack of faith. i can't help but wonder if this is so because Buddha and Muhammad and understood to be historically real men, while Christ is a shadow. Abraham and Moses are more up for debate, for similar reasons that reseearchers find the life of Jesus to be troublesome.

Recall that the teachings of Jesus are not diminished in any way by what a historian may or may not find. Your faith, and your capacity for belief remain as strong as they could ever be. I would simply say that others with differing systems of belief should be treated with the same kindness and respect.

Again I state - no one can take this from you, please do not try and take it from anyone else.



posted on Apr, 12 2015 @ 10:56 PM
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a reply to: windword

Thank you, it helps to feel welcome if not heard. I hear the weather on Serius B is lovely this time of year!



posted on Apr, 12 2015 @ 11:03 PM
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What was the name of the crocodile oil that was used to anoint the pharaohs?

p.s. you're welcome.

edit on 12-4-2015 by undo because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 12 2015 @ 11:04 PM
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OP,

I normally do not post... However, the latest trend in threads has somewhat drawn me to step forward and say my piece. I understand people have opinions and they are rightly allowed to speak them. With that said I have the following to say:

There is a growing dissent in the world towards christian and christianity. This will continue to increase no matter what I or anyone decide to say or do. Many people including yourself do not understand Christianity. Let me speak to your under standing of christianity for a second:




A good Christian simply has faith, a major requirement in the religion for salvation. God, in the Christian teachings, does not require proof to exist, nor does he ask you as a believer to seek said proof outside of your spirit and heart. To substitute faith for facts or proof is an unbridled act of Pride, a deadly sin. If God doesn't care what you prove about Him or His son, than what would be the point of proving that Jesus lived?


The above quote goes to point out that you truly do not understand the gravity nor the depth of what it means to be a christian. I do not mean this in a derogatory sense but rather in an educational fashion. You see a true christian or someone striving to be christ like is someone who is reaching out and striving to have a relationship with our creator. In this sense we have to have faith that he does exist. We are given clues in our everyday lives of this. The perfect mathematical equation that is our world, our personal lives and our existence that there is something more than just random chaos. Christ taught more than just faith he pushed his believers to learn and understand what they believed. A true christian in the respect is expected to question their faith! It is in this questioning and in the discovery of facts that God can be validated.

Science, archeology and history are not at ends with christianity but rather tools that allow us to prove the existence of what we cannot see taste or touch.

Being Christian means having faith in what you cannot understand but at the same time looking for the answers. Christianity does not tell us to have Blind faith and that is the only faith. Rather it states that those who do not have the proof in front of them are especially blessed as they were not afforded the luxury of experiencing christ first hand.

You may choose to NOT believe that Christ is real or that he is God on earth and that is fine... but do not call people as myself a biggot for having faith while searching for answers. As in science we hold theories and have faith those theories are true until such time that verifiable evidence has proven that the theory is incorrect.

So with that said there is no verifiable evidence that Christ did not exist however, there is some compelling evidence that he did.

On a side note:

I understand peoples disdain for christians in general and I would agree that for the most part many christians are ignorant... Simply put this is a problem within the christian "religion" notice I put religion in quotes. I did this because many do not acknowledge the fact that christianity today has been tainted by man. Our imperfection, greed, pride and ignorance has changed christianity into a bunch of luke warm sheeple. We have let men corrupt our teachings and the result is idiots and actual biggots like the westboro baptist lunatics!!! but are they truly Christian? the answer is a resounding NO!!!

Their words and actions are very much Anti Christ! They spew hate and intolerance at every corner! while the scriptures they read from are cherry picked and molded to fit the agenda of the "pastor"...

Without going into a long a drawn out diatribe on the church. I will say this... I have spent a good majority of my life in church's. I have seen what goes on in the inner workings... the politics, the money, the hatred and manipulation that hurt the faith. BUT at the same time I have seen the Love, compassion and kindness that are the foundations of a christian heart. The Christian church is broken! will it get better? No I am afraid not... Like I said I have spent much of my life in the church and it is one of the main reasons I now pursue my relationship with God privately!

A true Christian is not reliant on a Church but rather strives to educate themselves deeper into what they believe, about the faith and the history. while, also striving with their first priority to have a close relationship with the creator. I think this will do for now... I have much more to say on the topic but will see how this progresses.



posted on Apr, 12 2015 @ 11:05 PM
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a reply to: Herolotus

So you want to call Christians bigots for believing that Jesus existed while we disbelieve the veracity of other religions, yet you have not produced one shred of evidence to justify your opinion. If you want to throw around accusations, it would be wise to back them up with facts, lest you reveal the bigot that dwells within your own heart.

Its ironic how you project your own nature on the people you hate, and you do so without logical reason. Its ok....I forgive you.



posted on Apr, 12 2015 @ 11:08 PM
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a reply to: infolurker

To reply to some of your questions -

I was not there at the life of Christ and neither were you. The question is open, and due to the 'noise' created over the centuries, the truth will likely never be known. Sadly real historical research deals with this problem constantly. Forgeries and documents representing an ulterior motive are the norm, and much of the process of education in this field is in document analysis.

As to why I have these assertions, I did not just read about it somewhere and adopt an opinion. I simply started with a question, and then asking it, attempted to find an answer. I did this through a process of learning the skills needed to read the documents in question in their original state, judge their authenticity, and then understand peer reviewed judgement on these documents. I feel the next question will be 'Which Documents', and maybe I'll spend part of tomorrow afternoon sifting through my files and throwing that up here for you to dissect. My opinions sometimes matched those of scholars, often did not, but the criteria for one to determine that Jesus the man 'existed' in the same way we think Abraham Lincoln 'existed' is simply absent. This is very nearrly the case for other important historical figures, including Alexander the Great and Charlemagne - sad and disturbing, but true. The public trusts historians too much and take too much for granted.

As to claiming I have an ant-Christian agenda - that is just mean and moving toward proving my point. Christianity has an opportunity to be a lovely religion of peace and charity. Treat thy enemy as thy neighbor, thy neighbor as thyself, and turn the other cheek.



posted on Apr, 12 2015 @ 11:08 PM
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originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Herolotus

Thank you for that beautifully written, well thought out and insightful opening post. I agree with you 100%, and when I see people getting angry and hurtful, I want to, and do, mostly, remind them that belief in Jesus Christ is about faith, not fact.

However, there are a few proselytizers, who use the "creeping" tactic that's based on the premise that "IF you believe that Jesus existed".............then he was either a "mad man, a fraud or a liar".

That's why, sometimes, the debate needs to be smartly nipped in the bud.

It's all about faith, and enlightenment. Jesus was not about facts and forced obedience.




How can Jesus not be about facts and forced obedience if Jesus never existed?

I'm back, just came to this thread and had to just ask that question.
edit on 4/12/2015 by WarminIndy because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 12 2015 @ 11:13 PM
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a reply to: Aliensun

His opinions and beliefs are his own, and I'm not interested in pointing fingers more than I already have. Whoever he is, there is much determination and conviction in his words.

Thank for the civil reply, they are pouring in now, and most are not so pleasant!



posted on Apr, 12 2015 @ 11:13 PM
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a reply to: Herolotus

I am sure that if you are so interested in historical records concurrent with contemporaries and not sources hundreds of years later, can you provide us evidence that Socrates also existed?

Socrates

Socrates (/ˈsɒkrətiːz/;[2] Greek: Σωκράτης [sɔːkrátɛːs], Sōkrátēs; 470/469 – 399 BC)[1] was a classical Greek (Athenian) philosopher credited as one of the founders of Western philosophy. He is an enigmatic figure known chiefly through the accounts of classical writers, especially the writings of his students Plato and Xenophon and the plays of his contemporary Aristophanes. Plato's dialogues are among the most comprehensive accounts of Socrates to survive from antiquity, though it is unclear the degree to which Socrates himself is "hidden behind his 'best disciple', Plato".[3]


Hmm, he is written about by his disciples, nothing was written by him, and yet do you believe that Socrates existed?



posted on Apr, 12 2015 @ 11:25 PM
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a eply to: APOCOLYPSE DAWN

I whole heartily agree with a hearty AMEN!



posted on Apr, 12 2015 @ 11:28 PM
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a reply to: APOCOLYPSE DAWN

Thank you for a very well written response!

I think perhaps I was not clear enough however - my issue is with bad research supporting a bad motive. I do not seek to define any spritiual experience or behavior, but rather to point out the corrupt way in which others try and use something I hold very dear, the Truth and any attempt made at it's discovery, in order to push an agenda that is pointed at harming another.

My points more clearly are as follows -
- Christianity does not require the proclaimed historical fact of Jesus to be vaild and strong internally or externally.
- The study of history is tricky and complicated, and is like wading through a sea of lies. What appears to be stated clearly and plainly may not actually be the case when cultural, historical, and personal context are considered.
- The need to prove the publicly the existence of Jesus is closely tied to the desire to see other religions and systems of faith vanish in favor of Christianity. This is terrible, in my opinion. It is an opinion, but I hope it is a considerate one.

Thanks again, I like your confidence, and it sounds like you had a journey getting there. I look forward to seeing more.



posted on Apr, 12 2015 @ 11:30 PM
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a reply to: APOCOLYPSE DAWN

I absolutely agree with you to. Very well said.



posted on Apr, 12 2015 @ 11:34 PM
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a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Christians are capable of bigotry, but not all Christians are bigots.

As for proof, please understand that requires both time out of a busy life outside of this forum, and the desire to open myself up to even more ridicule. I'm sure you can see that a topic such as this will incite the expression of strong opinions.

To be clear - it is not the belief in Jesus that I am speaking of in the OP, it is the need to prove his existence as fact in the hsitorical record based upon current discoveries, which are lacking in the severe, and with the motive to deconstruct or diminish other forms of belief through this supposed 'proof'.

As to the forgiveness, the sentiment is appreciated but it is not yours to give.



posted on Apr, 12 2015 @ 11:35 PM
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a reply to: WarminIndy

Actually no!

And so now you have hit upon my point!

I like you!

History is a tricky thing that way, and it is widely understood behind the walls of academia that Socrates may well have been an invention of Plato...



posted on Apr, 12 2015 @ 11:38 PM
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originally posted by: Herolotus
a reply to: infolurker

Thank you and I appreciate your response.

Please understand that no one is threatening you, you are safe in your assertions and your belief. No one can take your faith from you.

My grievence is with those who would try to diminish or take beliefs from others. The need to prove the existence of Jesus suggests a massive lack of confidence, and indeed a lack of faith. i can't help but wonder if this is so because Buddha and Muhammad and understood to be historically real men, while Christ is a shadow. Abraham and Moses are more up for debate, for similar reasons that reseearchers find the life of Jesus to be troublesome.

Recall that the teachings of Jesus are not diminished in any way by what a historian may or may not find. Your faith, and your capacity for belief remain as strong as they could ever be. I would simply say that others with differing systems of belief should be treated with the same kindness and respect.

Again I state - no one can take this from you, please do not try and take it from anyone else.


I agree the true core of a Christian faith and life is to respect one another. It is only through respect that we can learn and appreciate what each has to offer. At the same time the only way to reach people is through mutual respect.

As far as the need to prove christ lived is not lacking in faith... but rather yet the strive for answers... We are all looking for answers and some need to have that factual proof to solidify their beliefs... Trust me its alot easier to believe when the answer is sitting right there in front of you!

As to scientists, archeologists, and historians thoughts on Christ:

Many people are looking at Christ the wrong way... He was not a political leader in fact he even says that he did not come for the kingdom on earth but rather yet the kingdom in heaven. So why would you look for evidence in the political arena? You will not find him talked about in that sense. Christ was not a political powerhouse but rather yet more like a traveling rabbi... He will not be marked in historical documents the same as mu hammed or Buddha. Christ did not have a kingdom on earth it wasn't his mission or purpose. He was a teacher that challenged the historical time's status quot and in that regard he was a trouble maker. You see the Jewish culture had been split between internal factions ( Saducees and pharisees) and each one of those factions had their own agenda. Now you have a very well versed young man who was educated in scripture, had a gift for teaching and he is traveling from town to town. This same traveling teacher is now turning your flock upside down and making waves... but its not the waves you want made! You have prophecies that speak to a savior that was to come but even today we interject our own opinions into what we think it should mean. At that time they expected a political savior a new king who would establish the heavenly kingdom on earth. Christ didnt fit that mold so they rejected him even to the bitter end.

So lets put ourselves in the jewish faction's seat for moment...

A guy is turning your world upside down and you finally get him killed... so how do you keep him from growing in popularity? How do you keep the balance you created in your political arena?

As they say and I am paraphrasing: "The victors write the history books..." So to expect written acknowledgment in any political bearing documents would be slim to none. To them Christ was a pain in the a$$ no body who was stirring up trouble.




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