Jesus as an archetype for consciousness

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: WarminIndy

If you knew me personally and saw how I treated everyone (with respect and love) you would know this. Those who follow Jesus' commands are his brothers, sisters, and mother, Jesus' commands were love and forgiveness. But you expect a sign or miracle to be performed which is superstitious religion dictating what your expectations should be.

Sorry, but I cannot walk on water or turn water into wine. If those are your expectations then they are unrealistic and based in myth.

You brag a lot. That's what I see.

And you should not have to feel compelled to assure me that you are nice to people in your real life. But you do spend a lot of time on ATS, where do you find the time to do all these good works?

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

One of Jesus' commands was to believe that He was the ONLY begotten Son of God. You do not believe that, so how can you have Christhood. You must be born again. Believe that He died for your sins, then you will have Christhood. Works wont cut it.

originally posted by: bb23108
a reply to: WarminIndy
I like what you say about taking on a persona and playing that role - and in some very real sense we all do this. Think about our everyday world - nothing we experience is apart from just a virtual re-imaging of that apparent reality. This is part of what the op is about.

All we do is perceive objects and others in life - we don't actually directly experience objects and others. We feel like we do, but even that feeling is another perception or sensation. But we persist in playing our role regardless because we believe it to be reality.

In some sense our online "virtual" reality is no less real than what we do in the world - at least, in the sense that it is still all just perceptions and re-imaging everything according to our transmitter-receiver functions of the body-mind.

Regardless, the real purpose of life is to find out what Reality actually is - submit to it altogether, and once it is recognized, felt, and understood beyond all this re-imaging by the body-mind, that Reality begins to reveal itself more and more, and we can then live on this true basis, in accordance with Reality.

I see truth in what you say. I have asked the OP before to tell me what color the sky is. It really isn't blue, we only perceive it is blue until we actually are in the sky, then it has no color. The same with water. Just look at a lake and how it reflects perfectly the sky, the mountains, the trees, the person looking into it. But take the water in your hand and it is none of those things.

Perceptions are just that. What I see may not be what you see. So it is not incumbent upon me to force you to see what you can't. Well, if there were a real fire then I should probably get you to see that.

There is a man I watched a video of, his name is Mark Passio. I realized that what he was saying, which he does not attribute to the Bible, is what the Bible says. Or maybe it is how I perceive it to be. Check it out, his videos are quite long and I should not link to them because no one wants to watch three hours at a time when they could be commenting on posts.

Mark Passio makes a lot of sense to me, and he isn't even a Christian.

a reply to: WarminIndy

You asked, I gave an answer. That's not bragging. Would you rather me ignore your question? I guess I can't win for losing with you. You already have it in your mind that I'm trying to deceive people or are deceived so whatever I say you'll twist it to fit your preconceived notion.

You act like since I post here on ATS and visit it regularly that means I can't somehow have a life outside of it. Lol.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

He was the only begotten Son of God. There is only one image and we all share it, just as there is only one loaf and we who are many share one body.

a reply to: WarminIndy
Right, our perceptions work fine for surviving, etc., but they are not going to show us what Reality truly is. Like you said, we can both be looking at the same object, and it appears differently to each of us - depending on our different angle of perception (pov), etc. To another creature, that same object may look completely different.

So what is that object actually in Reality? It is a great mystery, one the perceptual mind will never know. But we pretend we are great knowers of knowledge, and the materialistic model enforces this presumption more and more upon us if we are not actively hooked up with the Reality that is prior to all this appearance.

When one "experiences" the Divine most directly, it is not mediated by the senses. Obviously, people have all kinds of experiences that they might call spiritual - visions, sounds, energies, sensations, etc. But what I am talking about is a most direct tacit recognition of the Reality that we are all arising in. This is beyond our virtual world, but is not separate from it.

This is what Jesus and other great spiritual masters initiate their most devoted followers into.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

"I do not know if a man named Jesus roamed the Judean country side preaching a gospel during the early part of the first century..."

These are your words, so how can you believe that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, if you have'nt even made up your mind as to whether or not He ever existed?

Our souls are modeled after the image of God, but that does'nt make us His begotten sons. You must be born again first. Works cannot bring life to a dead spirit, only faith in Jesus' payment for our sins can do that. In our fallen state, our works (whether good or evil) come from our knowledge of Good and Evil. They are boastful works, not the same as Divine Righteousness.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: WarminIndy

You asked, I gave an answer. That's not bragging. Would you rather me ignore your question? I guess I can't win for losing with you. You already have it in your mind that I'm trying to deceive people or are deceived so whatever I say you'll twist it to fit your preconceived notion.

You act like since I post here on ATS and visit it regularly that means I can't somehow have a life outside of it. Lol.

I'm not on here as much, so maybe you do have a life. I don't know.

No, I don't think you are trying to deceive people. I do think though, that you are deceiving yourself.

a reply to: WarminIndy

I'm not deceiving myself I assure you. I look at things from a naturalistic perspective. Anything supernatural in the bible has a natural counterpart that it is trying to describe through metaphor. The pagan mythologies employed this technique, as have most if not every widespread religion throughout history. Christianity is no different, it uses supernatural metaphor to describe very natural processes and aspects of the reality we are a part of.

In an archetypal sense, I feel Christ epitomizes the elevated heart and the consciousness that flows from there...

“Embrace nothing:
If you meet the Buddha, kill the Buddha.
If you meet your father, kill your father.
Only live your life as it is,
Not bound to anything.”

― Gautama Siddhartha

I would say about Jesus also. I think that may have been the point of the story of the crucifixion. Jesus and Buddha are both concepts - 'things' that people fight about. The message was what was important - they were pointing toward something that is not a concept. Concepts, ideas, words, they will always conflict.
Can one see and hear without the words? The thinking mind has been put there after birth - it is deceptive.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: WarminIndy

I'm not deceiving myself I assure you. I look at things from a naturalistic perspective. Anything supernatural in the bible has a natural counterpart that it is trying to describe through metaphor. The pagan mythologies employed this technique, as have most if not every widespread religion throughout history. Christianity is no different, it uses supernatural metaphor to describe very natural processes and aspects of the reality we are a part of.

You use naturalistic perspectives to describe a spiritual metaphor, in your own world view?

You are the one presenting a spiritual world view through symbolism, which is what esotericism is based on. So which is it, the world is all natural or can it be part spiritual? Maybe it is both, but here is the real secret, the spiritual is more, because you are not even as real as a tree, because you have more empty space than a tree.

But you yourself, are you not spiritually enlightened? And what natural metaphors do you use to describe your spiritual understanding? Wouldn't you be just as pagan?

originally posted by: Itisnowagain

“Embrace nothing:
If you meet the Buddha, kill the Buddha.
If you meet your father, kill your father.
Only live your life as it is,
Not bound to anything.”

― Gautama Siddhartha

I would say about Jesus also. I think that may have been the point of the story of the crucifixion. Jesus and Buddha are both concepts - 'things' that people fight about. The message was what was important - they were pointing toward something that is not a concept. Concepts, ideas, words, they will always conflict.
Can one see and hear without the words? The thinking mind has been put there after birth - it is deceptive.

I don't know, but let's see what Helen Keller said...oh wait, she didn't see or hear, she only felt the fingers make words. But it opened up a spiritual understanding, because there was no physical seeing or hearing for her.

So how did she know someone would tell her the truth?

The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen or even touched. They must be felt within the heart. Helen Keller

Words have two meanings. Yes, there are two paths you can go by but in the long run.....

Concepts, that is what you say Jesus and Buddha was, well, what is the real concept of Jesus to you? Do you see a suffering sycophant like Satanism teaches, or do you see a suffering Savior, like 2,000 years of believers do? You know, Christianity has been around 2,000 years, so it is kind of funny that you dismiss history because you are so distant from it, and yet 2,000 years is really not that long of a time when it comes to history. The Celts have been in Britain longer than that, but there's still a bunch of stones lined up in a circle and yet there still are Celts in Britain.

History can't be changed, it can only be told differently. You are telling it differently, so what do you benefit from that?

a reply to: WarminIndy

Concepts, that is what you say Jesus and Buddha was,

Jesus and Buddha ARE concepts now.

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
a reply to: WarminIndy

Concepts, that is what you say Jesus and Buddha was,

Jesus and Buddha ARE concepts now.

Would George Washington also be a concept now?

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
a reply to: WarminIndy

Concepts, that is what you say Jesus and Buddha was,

Jesus and Buddha ARE concepts now.

Would George Washington also be a concept now?

Can you name any 'thing' that is not a concept?
Even your name is a concept!

Direct seeing and direct hearing - direct sensing - is non conceptual.

I don't know, but let's see what Helen Keller said...oh wait, she didn't see or hear, she only felt the fingers make words. But it opened up a spiritual understanding, because there was no physical seeing or hearing for her.

So how did she know someone would tell her the truth?

The truth cannot be told! The truth is hidden in plain sight, or in the case of Helen Keller - direct sensing.

History can't be changed, it can only be told differently. You are telling it differently, so what do you benefit from that?

I have no intention to tell any stories (history). I am pointing to now - the only time there ever was or will be. The 'presence' of God.
The present is overlooked because words cannot tell any stories about now - so words speak of before (past stories) and after (future stories) - but no story will ever be true - look how much conflict and arguing happen when speaking about things that may or may not have happened. How can there be 'resting as peace' when there is so much conflict?

Man overlooks the presence is search of something - some thing in the past or some thing in the future. But look right now - can the past be seen or touched? Can the future be smelt?
All sensing is happening now. Even the thoughts that arise speaking about other than now arise now. The thoughts are sensed - and there is a witnessing of that.

The knower and the known are not separate.
The Father could be said to be the knower of the moving light that is appearing now. Christ is a word that could be referring to the moving light that the Father is seeing.
The Father and son are never separate - they are one - there is no other.

There is only presence - there is nothing separate from presence.
'Individual' is a concept.