My take on the true story of Jesus... if he existed.

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

God never condoned or ordered murder or rape. There were laws against that. Slavery is reality, and the OT gave a well defined legal system to conduct slavery.

a reply to: Answer

Well you don't know much about history...the fact you keep rephrasing "if he existed at all" shows your incompetence when it comes to doing good historical research. The burden of proof rest on me as you lack belief in the existence of the man.

Extra-biblical sources that mention Jesus:

Josephus mentions him twice one passage has some interpolation in it, but the majority of scholars consider the parts about Jesus being crucified as legitimate. The second passage is completely legitimate with no questions.

Pliny mentions Christians singing hymns to Christ as a God. The phrasing "as a God" doesn't fit unless Jesus was a real. Pliny obviously recognized they were addressing someone who was or had been in existence.

Tacitus mentions him

Suetonius mention him, although admittedly some debate around this passage because Suetonius uses the word Chrestus.

Major Biblical sources:

Paul's letters

Mark

Luke

John

Matthew

Acts

All the Gospels were written within the 1st century and you can recreate the majority of the NT simply from Quotes from the Early Church Fathers.

The next point I will bring up is that when it comes to the criteria used to determine the reliability of a historical document to its original the Bible is only out beaten by contemporary sources.

I'll stop here and you can ask me anything you like seeing as how I have the burden of proof.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

The Old Testament is a hard pill to swallow, because it shows humanity's fallen nature in contrast to God's perfect nature.

Can you please show us a Biblical example, from the Old Testament, of "God" displaying his "perfect nature"?

a reply to: Answer
Your summary is interesting and makes a lot of sense. What I think can reconcile your take and much of what Jesus' is attributed with saying, is that Jesus was a spiritual master who appeared in order to establish both an esoteric teaching and an exoteric teaching for those open enough to receive it from him.

Jesus understood and fully demonstrated his essential unity with the Divine, and clearly taught that no one is separate from God. His two great commandments communicate this and are a brilliant summary of his teachings.

Love God with one's whole body-mind, etc., and one's neighbor as oneself. So the exoteric aspect is all about conforming the body-mind to a life devoted to God and living peacefully with everyone. Thus he first told his followers to straighten out their lives through simply turning to God altogether, and to love one another. Easier said than done, but it created the necessary equanimity in the body-mind, that those most ready could then receive his esoteric spiritual teaching. It also tested their sincerity and surrender to their Spiritual Master, all necessary components for receiving his Blessing.

To those most devoted to him, he spoke of not only his oneness with the Father but also, that everyone is one with the Father - and he demonstrated this to those most ready, via his esoteric teachings.

Fundamentally, Jesus would transmit the Grace of God to those prepared enough to receive God's Spirit. This transmission would lift them out of their usual bondage with the separate self of the physical body-mind, and all of its difficulties - into the Light above the body, in which unity is obvious.

The Light above is what he granted and this was their rebirth beyond the flesh, even while alive. This was what he was doing with Nicodemus, so it was not confined to just his 12 disciples. He transmitted to them this Blessing Grace and it overwhelmed them, and they were thus born again.

From that point on, they were changed for they had seen the one Light that transcends these difficult physical realms.

Anyway, there are various passages in the Bible that show Jesus was communicating esoteric wisdom (even non-dualism), that has parallels in other traditions, especially those of the East.

Unfortunately, much of his message was basically replaced by Paul's salvation message - what a poster here mentioned on the first page - that if you simply believe in Jesus that when you die, you will be saved.

This salvation message was a much easier message for the masses to receive, especially compared to what Jesus required in his 2 great commandments. It is a no-brainer which message became way more popular and greatly helped to create the exoteric religious institution of Christianity.

Unfortunately, the true esotericism that Jesus actually taught was essentially forgotten by almost everyone, though it is clearly in the Bible, and if you understand something about the principle of spiritual unity (non-dualism), and the tradition of spiritual masters, you can find it.

It seems that if many more Christians understood Jesus' esoteric message, and realized that his two great commandments are dealing with both our daily life and our spiritual life, their mistaken presumptions made relative to Paul's own revision of Jesus' essential teachings, would be replaced by Jesus' actual teachings of one's true approach to the Divine through him, his word, and his actual requirements. This would get Christianity back to its real roots and make it much more meaningful for many.

a reply to: bb23108

Jesus clearly taught that only those who believed in him would have eternal life...

a reply to: windword

Sure, just read the Pentateuch. That is where God's Law was given. Those laws are His divine standard. God demonstrated His perfection with the Atonement sacrifices to cleanse and forgive His believers. God exercised foreknowledge by telling Israel what decisions to make. When Israel disobeyed, they suffered the consequences of rejecting God's wisdom. Before Israel even failed to follow the Law, God promised the Messiah to make atonement for their sins.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

That's not an answer.

You said:
The Old Testament is a hard pill to swallow, because it shows humanity's fallen nature in contrast to God's perfect nature.

I asked:
Can you please show us a Biblical example, from the Old Testament, of "God" displaying his "perfect nature"?

Telling me to read the first 5 books of the Bible isn't an answer. And anyway, those laws are far FAR from perfection, as has been already demonstrated. From those books I can show you a "God" who is frustrated, angry, jealous and afraid.

So please, if you want to be taken seriously, then please provide an example from the OT of "God" displaying his "Perfect Nature".

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: bb23108

Jesus clearly taught that only those who believed in him would have eternal life...

Right, because Jesus clearly understood that He and the Father are One. We must conform to that One in order to realize that which transcends mortality.

a reply to: bb23108
You need to be a little more clear. What is your understanding of One and what do you mean by we must conform to that One?

a reply to: windword

Gen 5:28 Lamech lived one hundred and eighty-two years, and became the father of a son. 29 Now he called his name Noah, saying, “This one will give us rest from our work and from the toil of our hands arising from the ground which the LORD has cursed.”

God held true to His promise of the Messiah from the seed of Eve. When Noah and his family were the only full-blooded humans left on earth, God delivered them so that the Messiah could pay for the sins of the world.

What is your standard for perfection? Clearly its not the Biblical standard, so any answer I give will be rejected by you.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

He doesn't have one. You can reduce him to a moral nihilist in a heart beat, though he will never admit that is what he is.

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: bb23108
You need to be a little more clear. What is your understanding of One and what do you mean by we must conform to that One?

Jesus in his first great commandment speaks of completely loving God with the whole body, mind, etc. That same One and what must be done to conform oneself to that One, is summarized there.

When one turns to God with everything one has, the body-mind gets conformed to God through Grace. This Blessing then allows the body-mind to love God through real communion.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

I disagree.

Though I am sure what I view as murder, you would view as punishment. I view it as murder in most cases because the punishment of death was often handed out for the most petty reasons. Such as simply not believing in God. Or my favorite, working on the Sabbath. If I recall correctly it was Moses who put a man to death for gathering sticks on that day. Let's face it, that type of punishment is cold blooded murder. In my morality thread, I have listed all the things God ordered death as a punishment for. Take a look, they are pretty pathetic. Not to mention the commanded genocides..

Which leads me to the point about rape.

God may not have condoned rape in a conventional sense. But let me ask you what you think the real difference between rape, and being taken as a captive of war and forced to marry a man who just killed your friends and family is? In case there is any doubt sex was involved, it was strictly the virgins God told them to take as their wives. I doubt they were willing.

Yes, slavery was part of the way things were back then. So ofc, as an atheist who does not believe the texts were divinely inspired, is not surprised to find it in the Bible. The argument can be made that slavery was deemed inappropriate in the New Testament, with the teachings of Jesus. However it is never specifically condemned and was still practiced. In the Old Testament, slavery is condoned. God established laws regarding it. None of them say not to do it, only how to do it properly. I can't recall off the top of my head where this verse is located but it says that it's ok to beat your slaves within an inch of their life, so long as they are able to recover and get back to work within a few days time. You can try to wave it all away as "we are all slaves in a way" if you want. That makes no sense in context to the slavery in the Bible whatsoever though.

I invite you to take a look at my morality thread, if you haven't before.

I urge anyone who believes God is perfect to read it.

a reply to: bb23108

I am still unclear by what you mean by that One. I don't see anything that would refer to the One Jesus is referencing in John 10:30.

John 10
"24 The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”

25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep."

The context of John 10:30 is this scenario. The Jews are all gathering around Jesus wanting to know if He is the Messiah. Jesus claims to have told the plainly at least once before and tells them again in the passage. He goes on to finish his response with a clear I and the Father are One. To which the Jews are ready to stone him for, because he claims to be God.

In matthew 22 you find:

41 Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question: 42 “What do you think about the Christ, whose son is He?” They *said to Him, “The son of David.” 43 He *said to them, “Then how does David in the Spirit call Him ‘Lord,’ saying,

44
‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Until I put Your enemies beneath Your feet”’?

45 If David then calls Him ‘Lord,’ how is He his son?” 46 No one was able to answer Him a word, nor did anyone dare from that day on to ask Him another question.

Most people do not realize that Jesus is claiming to be God. It also is an excellent example of the trinity. The first thing I would like to point out is Jesus is quoting Psalm 110:1. This is not the only area in the Bible you find this oddity, but take a look at the language used. Its done multiple times. The LORD said to The LORD....notice THE LORD speaks to THE LORD. This is because the Messiah has existed eternally alongside the Father and they are two parts of the Whole which is Elohim.

In the passage Jesus ask the Pharisees "What do you think of the Christ(Messiah)?" They respond by saying he is the son of David(meaning a man). Jesus the poses another question, "If David calls Him Lord how can He be his son?" Jesus is clearly pointing to the fact that the Christ is Lord of All as well as a Man.

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: WakeUpBeer

God never condoned or ordered murder or rape. There were laws against that. Slavery is reality, and the OT gave a well defined legal system to conduct slavery.

Actually, there are several bible verses that claim god wants his followers to murder and rape nonbelievers... You should read your beloved text a little more.

"They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.
Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves." (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)

""When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion." (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)

"Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel." (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

"If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst." (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

"For the LORD had said to Moses, 'Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed." (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)

" The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death." (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)

" From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces." (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)

" And he smote of the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of Jehovah, he smote of the people seventy men, `and' fifty thousand men; and the people mourned, because Jehovah had smitten the people with a great slaughter. And the men of Beth-shemesh said, Who is able to stand before Jehovah, this holy God? and to whom shall he go up from us?" (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV)

"The ark of God was placed on a new cart and taken away from the house of Abinadab on the hill. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab guided the cart, with Ahio walking before it, while David and all the Israelites made merry before the Lord with all their strength, with singing and with citharas, harps, tambourines, sistrums, and cymbals.
When they came to the threshing floor of Nodan, Uzzah reached out his hand to the ark of God to steady it, for the oxen were making it tip. But the Lord was angry with Uzzah; God struck him on that spot, and he died there before God." (2 Samuel 6:3-7 NAB)

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

"And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died." (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)

To be continued... There's too much rape and murder for one post.

"You are my battle-ax and sword," says the LORD. "With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. "As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem," says the LORD. "Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy," says the LORD. "I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out," says the LORD." (Jeremiah 51:20-26)

"Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children." (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

"When he reached Lehi, and the Philistines came shouting to meet him, the spirit of the Lord came upon him: the ropes around his arms become as flax that is consumed by fire and the bonds melted away from his hands. Near him was the fresh jawbone of an ass; he reached out, grasped it, and with it killed a thousand men." (Judges 15:14-15 NAB)

"There was also a man named Ananias who, with his wife, Sapphira, sold some property. He brought part of the money to the apostles, but he claimed it was the full amount. His wife had agreed to this deception. Then Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart? You lied to the Holy Spirit, and you kept some of the money for yourself. The property was yours to sell or not sell, as you wished. And after selling it, the money was yours to give away. How could you do a thing like this? You weren't lying to us but to God." As soon as Ananias heard these words, he fell to the floor and died. Everyone who heard about it was terrified. Then some young men wrapped him in a sheet and took him out and buried him. About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. Peter asked her, "Was this the price you and your husband received for your land?" "Yes," she replied, "that was the price." And Peter said, "How could the two of you even think of doing a thing like this – conspiring together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Just outside that door are the young men who buried your husband, and they will carry you out, too." Instantly, she fell to the floor and died. When the young men came in and saw that she was dead, they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. Great fear gripped the entire church and all others who heard what had happened." (Acts 5:1-11 NLT)

"Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood." (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)

There are plenty of other examples but I think my point has been made. I know you'll give some excuse about verses taken out of context or some such nonsense but it's the height of intellectual dishonesty to say that the Old Testament god was not a blood-thirsty, violent psychopath.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

God held true to His promise of the Messiah from the seed of Eve. When Noah and his family were the only full-blooded humans left on earth, God delivered them so that the Messiah could pay for the sins of the world.

This is a story that you believe to be true, but this isn't biblical example showing "humanity's fallen nature in contrast to God's perfect nature".

Gen 5:28 Lamech lived one hundred and eighty-two years, and became the father of a son. 29 Now he called his name Noah, saying, “This one will give us rest from our work and from the toil of our hands arising from the ground which the LORD has cursed.”

How is the above scripture, that you presented, an example of God's perfect nature? I can keep promises too. Does that make me perfect?

What is your standard for perfection? Clearly its not the Biblical standard, so any answer I give will be rejected by you.

So far you haven't shown any biblical example of God's perfect nature (in contrast to man's fallen nature) for me to reject.

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a
I am still unclear by what you mean by that One. I don't see anything that would refer to the One Jesus is referencing in John 10:30.

John 17:21
"that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me."

Jesus is clearly stating that He and the Father are One and prays that "all of them" may also see that they are One. This is non-dualism.

One is One - not many, nor elsewhere or other. There is One absolute Divine. Even though Jesus spoke of being the Son of the Father, this was him speaking about a particular aspect of the One Divine God. Those that fully surrender to this One Divine God (Reality) realize what is beyond all conditionality.

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

God had specific rules about the Sabbath to teach rest and worship. If Israel did not comply, bad things happened. After all, it was God who delivered Israel from the slavery in Egypt. A person who did not rest on the Sabbath, did not rest his faith in God.

Marriages were always arranged in those days, whether in Israel or in the gentile nations. As part of the curse that God put on the earth, a wife is alway to obey her husband. This curse will be lifted at the end of the Millennium. This was a general understanding in those days. I dont see how this constitutes rape, which is a violent sexual crime.

In the OT, the "rod" or "staff" was a device of disipline. The only justification for beating a slave with a staff would be for criminal punishment. Im pretty sure that Exodus 21:20-21 does not condone the general mistreatment of slaves.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

You just blew my mind!

I never commented on arranged marriages, I commented on captive war wives. Though I guess since God arranged the murder of their friends and families, it still counts as arranged marriage. Though what you're talking about had absolutely nothing to do with what I was talking about, and you know that. I was talking about forced marriages. Which no doubt lead to sex. It's rape because of that.

Slavery is slavery, regardless of how you treat your slave.

And yes, I figured you would argue the death penalty for living in a town of non believers or any of the other dumb reasons it was carried out, was divine punishment.