Geologist: ''Jesus was married with a child and tomb found''

I don't doubt there was a man the myth was built around.

No different then Johnny Appleseed IMO.

You might be able to prove the man - - - but Myths are still just Myths.

a reply to: Annee

King Arthur
Braveheart
Robin Hood
.......

all based on real people.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: Annee

King Arthur
Braveheart
Robin Hood
.......

all based on real people.

True.

I use Johnny Appleseed because he's more current and there's detailed info of his real life.

Here is an academic paper on Jewish shrouds and funeral customes.

Ada Grossi,
Jewish

Shrouds and Funerary Customs: a Comparison with the Shroud of Turin
Abstract

This paper studies some aspects of the Shroud of Turin in relation to Jewish funerarycustoms: the analysis is based on scientific literature on the subject, on ancient sources and on archaeological finds. After discussing a few specific characteristics of the Turin Shroud fabric, we delve into talmudic and traditional references to Jewish burial shrouds and into some linguistic observations (also presenting a Hebrew textile terms glossary).The Shroud of Turin appears to be a traditional Jewish burial shroud; the only really peculiar feature is the exceptional value of the cloth (which is however consistent with the range of possibilities allowed by Jewish laws).
...

link

Here is a copilation of evidence from various texts and books on what Greek word usage tells us about the Burial Wrappings of Jesus. It also shows some pictures with examples of found Jewish burial shrouds, and it includes excerpts from other ancient texts which mention the shroud of Turin bearing the image of Jesus. Including a passage from the Acts of Thaddaeus, which describes a cloth with Christ' image, and the Corpus Scriptorum Historiae Byzantinae (Cedrenus was from 19th century) with a passage from Georgius Cedrenus also mentioning the cloth with the image of Jesus, among others.

ìA Clean Clothî
What Greek Word Usage Tells Us about the Burial Wrappings of Jesus
Diana Fulbright
Director of Research, Shroud of Turin Center
12829 River Road
Richmond, Virginia, 23233, USA
© 2005, DIANA FULBRIGHT, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED
[email protected]
Throughout popular literature about the Shroud of Turin, σινδων(sindon) frequently is represented as the Greek word for "shroud."1 Σινδων is used by writers of the synoptic gospels (Matthew, Mark and Luke) in accounts of the burial of Jesus, and recent Bible translations render σινδων as "shroud." (e.g., RSV) But the word actually denotes a very fine and relatively expensive cloth, not necessarily linen and not intrinsically connoting death or burial.2
...
In this passage, (Figure 5) the Lord, seeking to wash [himself], was given
a shred of cloth or rag (ρακος)[folded] as "four doubled" (τετραδιπλον,)which
might be taken to mean a cloth customarily folded several times for personal
transport (as we today might fold something to be put in a pocket) yielding
eight layers.36
Left impressed on the linen cloth was a miracle ñ the copy of his
form (μορφη). The cloth is referred to as σινδων in both texts.
...
The cloth folded in this manner ñ three times ñ yields eight layers, as we can see from Wilsonís diagram and from simple mathematics. (Folded in half once yields two layers; folded in half a second time doubles this to four layers;
folded in half a third time doubles this to eight layers.)
From ancient historical evidence, the Shroud also might have been folded in an accordion-like pattern, as Aldo
Guerreschi proposes.40 (Figure 7)
Figure 7.
Diagram of manner in which the Turin Shroud might have been folded, first lengthwise, then in accordion-like pleats.
...

www.shroud.com...

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Nice contribution...but again - what of it?

Are you going to answer my question? Or address the sources I've brought up?

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

in ancient times linen was protected with starch, and the final product was washed with Saponaria officinalis suds, which is hemolytic, and "could" explain why the blood was/is still red in the shroud.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

okay, that one I'll bite.

Still - what if he wasn't really dead? Since, you know, corpses don't bleed.
How, if it was a corpse, would all that "blood" have streamed from the areas that are consistent with a stab to the rib cage (NOT THROUGH THE HEART AS SOME CLAIM), the hands and feet?

I wish you'd be interested enough to read the book I linked. It's a one-day read, but it has so much information in it that I guarantee you will have to think twice before dismissing it.

Lol now you are bringing up hoax number 2 The Sudarium which has been Carbon dated to 700 AD. You are really falling into the "I DESPERATELY want to believe camp".

originally posted by: ElectricUniverse
a reply to: Agartha


Not to mention. The punishment Jesus received was unique because Pilate at first did not want to kill him, which is why he extended the suffering of Jesus in the hopes that the Jewish people present at the time would be satisfied without having Jesus put to death. It was still deplorable. However, could you show us evidence of anyone else at the time of Jesus receiving the same wounds/suffering as Jesus did?

Then again, if the appearance of a full body of a dead person in the burial shroud that covered them could be explained with "aromatic and burial ointments" then we would have a lot of shrouds similar to the Shroud of Turin. So show me these other full body shrouds.

I repeat again: despite the Romans recording everything they did, there is no record of Jesus being crucified and no record of Pilate being dismissed due to his actions against Christ. Nothing. Show us the Roman records that link Pilate and Jesus please.


You don't read what I write: only some spots on the dorsal part of the shroud is explained as having been caused by ointments. And in medieval times at least 40 shrouds were created, most were destroyed but I'm sure you have heard of the shroud of Besancon which was also meant to be the real thing.


Excellent article here: www.academia.edu...

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Still - what if he wasn't really dead? Since, you know, corpses don't bleed. How, if it was a corpse, would all that "blood" have streamed from the areas that are consistent with a stab to the rib cage (NOT THROUGH THE HEART AS SOME CLAIM), the hands and feet?

Are you quite sure that a corpse does not bleed? A dead person will not spurt blood simply because the heart is not pumping blood but a dead person can seep blood through wounds and especially deep wounds for quite a length of time. Jesus was not laying down when He died and He was immediately taken down after death or at least within a very short time. We understand that in the biblical account of between the ninth hour and the twelfth hour. Jesus' body did not have time to pool because He was handled and moved to the tomb. Seepage is not uncommon in wounds for several hours and especially if the body is moved about.

Jesus is a concept. Until all concepts are seen for what they are there will be suffering. The sin is the belief in concepts. The story of Jesus is about killing concepts. If one is lead astray by concepts then one will be divided and when one is divided one feels separate from God. God is the peace which is prior all concepts - God is also all concepts that arise.
When the thought 'Jesus is a concept' arose I googled it and this is what I found.

Christian theologians often consider John 1:1 to be a central text in their belief that Jesus is God, in connection with the idea that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are equals. Though only in this verse is Jesus referred to as the Word of God, the theme transposed throughout the Gospel of John with variations.[1] Theologian N.T. Wright characterizes "Word" (logos) as being incomprehensible in human language. He claims that through belief the Logos will transform people with its judgment and mercy. According to Wright, John's view of the Incarnation, of the Word becoming flesh, strikes at the very root of what he terms "the liberal denial...of the idea of God becoming human...." His assessment is that when the "enfleshment" and speaking Word is removed from the center of Christian theology, all that is left is "a relativism whose only moral principle is that there are no moral principles, no words of judgment (because nothing is really wrong, except saying that things are wrong), no words of mercy (because you're all right as you are, so all you need is affirmation)."

en.wikipedia.org...(Christianity)

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Jesus is the most verifiable figure in history…

the Gospels are more verifiable than any other ancient writings by far.

yt: Lee Strobel - The Case for the Resurrection
www.youtube.com...
yt: The Bible Is True! ~ The New Evidence That Demands A Verdict
www.youtube.com...
yt: Walter Veith (13) Battle of the Bibles /Total Onslaught
www.youtube.com...
youtube: The Resurrection Argument That Changed a Generation of Scholars - Gary Habermas at UCSB youtu.be...
yt: The Forbidden Book - History of The English Bible (Documentary Film)
www.youtube.com...
yt: A Lamp In The Dark:untold history of Bible ~ Full Film
www.youtube.com...

a reply to: Agartha

MANY atheists have converted after sincerely trying to destroy Christianity...

yt: Jesus: Evidence, ancient historical sources
youtu.be...
Part I: Evidence of the existence of Jesus Christ by Simon Greenleaf, the Royal Professor of Law at Harvard University. Dr. Greenleaf was one of the greatest legal minds that ever lived. He wrote the famous legal volume entitled, A Treatise on the Law of Evidence, considered by many the greatest legal volume ever written. Dr. Simon Greenleaf believed the Resurrection of Jesus Christ was a hoax. And he determined, once and for all, to expose the "myth" of the Resurrection. After thoroughly examining the evidence for the resurrection — Dr. Greenleaf came to the exact opposite conclusion! He wrote a book entitled, An Examination of the Testimony of the Four Evangelists by the Rules of Evidence Administered in the Courts of Justice. In which he emphatically stated: 
"it was IMPOSSIBLE that the apostles could have persisted in affirming the truths they had narrated, had not JESUS CHRIST ACTUALLY RISEN FROM THE DEAD, . . ."
(Simon Greenleaf, An Examination of the Testimony of the Four Evangelists by the Rules of Evidence Administered in the Courts of Justice, p.29).

Part II examines evidence from the non-biblical sources of nineteen pagan writers that refer to Jesus Christ of the first century such as Tacitus, Suetonius, Pliny the Younger. Also doucmented by Flavius Josephus, the greatest historian of the Jews.

"After six years given to the impartial investigation of Christianity as to its truth or falsity, I have come to the deliberate conclusion that Jesus Christ was the Messiah of the Jews, the Savior of the world and my own personal Redeemer." -- General Lew Wallace, one-time atheist, military general and literary genius, who along with Robert Ingersoll agreed together they would write a book that would forever destroy the myth of Christianity. Mr. Wallace studied for two years in the leading libraries of Europe and America for information to destroy Christianity. While writing the second chapter of his book, he suddenly found himself on his knees, crying out, "My Lord and my God." The evidence was overwhelmingly conclusive. Later, Wallace wrote "Ben Hur" one of the greatest Christian novels.
~ General Lew Wallace

a reply to: Agartha

I am sure there may be fakes out there, but the Shroud of Turin is unique and inexplicable and the newest BBC documentary on it shows it is likely from the time of Christ…

forensics like microscopic pollen and other very specific things that no hoaxer would have thought of in the middle ages before such tech exists… pollen that only exists in the middle east and verified to exist in Palestine.

a reply to: Verum1quaere

Part II examines evidence from the non-biblical sources of nineteen pagan writers that refer to Jesus Christ of the first century such as Tacitus, Suetonius, Pliny the Younger. Also doucmented by Flavius Josephus, the greatest historian of the Jews.

None of those people, not one of them, never ever mentioned Jesus Christ! There is no proof that Jesus of Nazareth ever existed, outside of the Bible, and certainly no proof that he was crucified or that he rose from the dead after dying for our collective sins.

originally posted by: Verum1quaere
a reply to: Agartha

MANY atheists have converted after sincerely trying to destroy Christianity...

Are you implying Greenleaf was atheist?

He was a Christian Apologist. Which means he used history to prove the bible.

Christian apologetics is a field of Christian theology which present reasoned bases for the Christian faith, defending the faith against objections.

Apologetics have based their defense of Christianity on historical evidence, philosophical arguments, and arguments from other disciplines. Christian polemic is a branch of apologetics aimed at criticizing or attacking other belief systems.

en.wikipedia.org...

a reply to: Seede

Are you quite sure that a corpse does not bleed? A dead person will not spurt blood simply because the heart is not pumping blood but a dead person can seep blood through wounds and especially deep wounds for quite a length of time.

Honestly, I have wondered about that very thing.

I've seen too many cop shows and movies to think that a dead person does not continue to bleed for some time.

Nevertheless, even given that, the myth that he was stabbed through the heart is the most troubling to me.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

Jesus is a concept. Until all concepts are seen for what they are there will be suffering.

Exactly.

The sin is the belief in concepts.

GAH!!!! No! - see?!! - you had me with your "concept" statements.
But; then you brought up "sin".
NO.




Just - no. "Sin" is a concept as well as a construct - It is imagined, described, devised and implemented BY WANNA-BE LEADERS to scare people into submission.

no.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

bleeding can only happen if the heart is pumping...

otherwise the blood begins to pool in the lowest parts of the body

a reply to: windword

None of those people, not one of them, never ever mentioned Jesus Christ! There is no proof that Jesus of Nazareth ever existed, outside of the Bible, and certainly no proof that he was crucified or that he rose from the dead after dying for our collective sins.

I would suggest that you do a read on the Munich Talmud b. San. 43a and you will find your evidence of acknowledgement of Jesus outside the bible of the Greeks and the Hebrews both. The word Christ is not written in the Munich Talmud.

Proof does not exist in theology. Only evidence. You may very well be correct when you confess that Jesus did not die for your sins but many others believe that He did die for their sins. The entire concept of resurrection is theology.