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Canadian orchestra drops Ukraine-born pianist over anti-Kiev posts

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posted on Apr, 7 2015 @ 10:25 AM
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You know folks, I have to say,this has been building for a while now. I can't speak for anyone else on these forums,but I know that I am tired of hearing that stupid word shill and the word troll. This is not exactly on topic,and yet it is. But I think there is a group of you that have been arguing back and forth from one post to another that all just need to take a break from it. The name calling back and forth,the innuendos,the dismissal of another's info. Come on already.Are you trying to get to the truth? Or just trying to bash someone else's? And don't give me this nonsense about its just one side or the other that is doing it, I'M WATCHING BOTH SIDES DO IT. I understand that discussions can get heated when people dig in for their own opinion,but this is getting out of hand. I have been passing up posting on some of the more inflammatory posts,because I am tired of the rhetoric.

1.There is a group of the same people on here that NO MATTER WHAT,will believe the propaganda the west is putting out.
2.There is a group of people on here that NO MATTER WHAT,will believe the propaganda the east is putting out. I have always said that when you have several different sides to an argument,that the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

I don't believe the whole story from either side. But this mind set of "I must make them believe me and only me" has gone too far. Get off your high horses,and just step back and look at all the info out there. Even if its things you don't agree with. Just use your eyes. Don't believe all of it,only go with what seems most logical. Cause anyone that is silly enough to wholly believe everything one side is saying,needs to step away from their computer. I will tell you that I have seen where the pro west side has been throwing all kinds of accusations around at the pro Russian side lately,it needs to stop.You HAVE NO PROOF of anything nefarious that you 'think' they are doing. So with no proof,stop it. Just because someone does'nt agree with you,does not make them a shill or troll or foolish or anything else.They just have a different opinion. Get over it. No one is saying you have to believe what they want.

Those that are pro Russian,don't even bother discussing these things, I have seen several threads lately that was blatant baiting by the other side to start a fight. There IS a larger group of Russia haters on here than pro Russian. Leave them be and don't bother to answer their posts. Its just baiting for the sake of baiting,not to even share any new info. The mods have been shutting these posts down because they are getting out of hand.




posted on Apr, 7 2015 @ 10:43 AM
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a reply to: Dimithae

Sanity

You said it better than me. I woke up to one of these threads this morning and basically called both sides assholes and children, and decided to just back away and get a coffee.

I can't pick sides, I still like to think of Canada as relatively neutral, except Harper is quickly changing that. He's putting us in the middle of everything.
I still like Russians. They understand our northern winters. We're as much like the Russian people as we are like Americans.
And we are literally in the middle. Even if both countries get their aim right, we're still toasted.



posted on Apr, 7 2015 @ 02:06 PM
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originally posted by: BornAgainAlien
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

She was using hyperboles deliberately to counter the hyperboles which have been going on.


Complete lies are not hyperbole. Hyperbole is an exaggeration (per your source as well). Saying they are building camps is not hyperbole. Saying they called all Russians subhuman and defending it is not hyperbole. Nothing I posted that was critical of her falls under hyperbole. Blatant 100% lies are not hyperbole, maybe you need to learn what hyperbole is.



posted on Apr, 7 2015 @ 02:14 PM
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originally posted by: Dimithae
1.There is a group of the same people on here that NO MATTER WHAT,will believe the propaganda the west is putting out.
2.There is a group of people on here that NO MATTER WHAT,will believe the propaganda the east is putting out. I have always said that when you have several different sides to an argument,that the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

I don't believe the whole story from either side.

That does not apply to this thread. The OP admitted the stuff she was saying was false. The OP and Wine have flat out said she was lying, but it doesn't matter the West is still in the wrong.

Does the West come out with pure BS, of course, each and every topic has to be looked at by itself, and this is a topic where there is no Western propaganda, all the propaganda was coming from the lady who was told not to perform, rightfully so. I showed some of her claims back on page 1, it's blatant lies. I looked on her twitter and people who told her things she was saying were untrue were talked down to by her and she kept posting the lies after shown she was wrong.



posted on Apr, 7 2015 @ 02:16 PM
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originally posted by: snowspirit
I still like Russians. They understand our northern winters. We're as much like the Russian people as we are like Americans.
And we are literally in the middle. Even if both countries get their aim right, we're still toasted.

The problem is not the Russian people (who also do not like the Ukraine invasion), it's those in power reverting back to cold war thinking seemingly wanting to resurrect the USSR. American politicians are mostly scumbags too, but that has no bearing on this particular topic.



posted on Apr, 7 2015 @ 02:31 PM
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a reply to: OccamsRazor04

With someone who openly says he`s a follower of Stepan Bandera, she makes a hyperbole about it...

...because in her opinion, it`s the best way to get attention for the situation...you can debate if that`s the right way...

...however, with the West doing the same, she thinks it`s justified to counter such crap.

Let`s see how the West is using hyperboles...

Russia wants to take over the Ukraine, no they don`t, they are not stupid and know it will cost them 100.000 soldiers and the cost it brings, and that is when the ultra-nationalists are doing nothing, once they will rise up (most likely will happen in that case) Russia will need 200.000 troops permanently.

And Russia can expect at the same time destabilizing in other places, completely bankrupting Russia.

So they are not that stupid, yet the media gets filled with a hyperbole about Russia wanting the Ukraine, but they don`t stop there, they make even a hyperbole about that hyperbole by saying Europe is threatened by Russia.

And the same goes about Putin being Hitler.

So you see, it`s nothing more as tit for tat.



posted on Apr, 7 2015 @ 02:56 PM
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a reply to: OccamsRazor04

It DOES apply to this thread. I am talking about the behavior of the members on here with all the name calling,disrespect,and accusations that are flying around. People need to stop baiting others,stop picking fights,and if you feel you need to argue a point,fine. Argue the point.Not whether someone is a shill or troll or anything else. They are not morons,stupid,idiots or anything else anyone wants to come up with at the moment. This is disrespectful to other members.

I know we don't all agree.That is fine,there is always another way to look at things. But just because someone doesn't agree with you,it makes them a shill? Are you kidding me? Can you all not see that this is what is wrong in the world right now? People are so hung up on promoting their side,right or wrong,that everyone else has to be demonized. If this is what democracy is about,you can have it. I was born and raised in the US and I have never seen such closed minded ,freedom hating rhetoric in all my life.

People want freedom of speech FOR THEM. But no one else. You see this in the laws they have been trying to pass lately,you see it on the msm,you see it in forums. Freedom is never freedom unless it applies to all.That means people may not agree with each other,but you don't need to resort to name calling and accusations. I do believe that is against the T&Cs anyway.I am not just saying about you OccamsRazor04,I have seen it on both sides from quite a few people now.

As far as this woman goes,yes she used hyperbole.Okay so what. She didn't say anything against the Orchestra,her comments were about Ukraine. I want all of you think about this. I don't care which side you are on either.How would you like to go to work tomorrow only to find out that you are fired for whatever side you took? Maybe what you said wasn't what your company wants to hear out of you? Maybe customers wouldn't like it if they knew? Do you want to have to be quiet and not say what you think because you may lose your job over it? I can see if it is about your job or that field,yes.But if its something unrelated? When do you decide that freedom is being throw out with the bath water?



posted on Apr, 7 2015 @ 03:27 PM
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originally posted by: Dimithae
As far as this woman goes,yes she used hyperbole.Okay so what. She didn't say anything against the Orchestra,her comments were about Ukraine. I want all of you think about this. I don't care which side you are on either.How would you like to go to work tomorrow only to find out that you are fired for whatever side you took? Maybe what you said wasn't what your company wants to hear out of you? Maybe customers wouldn't like it if they knew? Do you want to have to be quiet and not say what you think because you may lose your job over it? I can see if it is about your job or that field,yes.But if its something unrelated? When do you decide that freedom is being throw out with the bath water?

Interesting thing...in Russia, the Arts receive a lot of government support. If they like you. Pussy Riot did not fare so well. I think their music sucks, sure, but it's a sign of how the Russians view things. In Canada, not so much support. A boycott because of Lisitsa's very noisy opinions could create real damage to the TSO as a not-for-profit. She was not hired for her political views...she was hired to play piano. Gergiev is welcomed here, even though he is a big pal of Putin's. Why? Because he does not use his status to stridently promote a hyperbolic perception of Russian/Ukrainian politics. He comes to conduct.

The TSO has every right to pick and choose, as does any employer. And if they decide they've made a mistake? Well, there's the door. And I'd say the same if she was Ukrainian, Irish, whatever. I note that Sinéad O'Connor was not invited back to SNL after she let her politics interfere with her performance. Make whatever statement you need to as an artist...but be prepared to take the flack. If you can't take that, find another line of work.



posted on Apr, 7 2015 @ 03:31 PM
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a reply to: JohnnyCanuck

And if she were using the TSO to promote her views on Ukraine then I would say they have every right to do something about it.But on her own blog? No freedom of speech is freedom of speech. Its either that or outlaw freedom of speech for gods sake.
edit on 7-4-2015 by Dimithae because: added a line



posted on Apr, 7 2015 @ 03:37 PM
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a reply to: JohnnyCanuck



Make whatever statement you need to as an artist...but be prepared to take the flack. If you can't take that, find another line of work.


So Charlie Hebdo was nothing more as, they took the flack and no big deal also according to you ?
edit on 7 4 2015 by BornAgainAlien because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 7 2015 @ 03:43 PM
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originally posted by: Dimithae
a reply to: JohnnyCanuck

And if she were using her talents with the TSO then I would say they have every right to do something about it.But on her own blog? No freedom of speech is freedom of speech. Its either that or outlaw freedom of speech for gods sake.

I am more than mindful of the importance of freedom of speech. I am also aware that provocative statements are designed to provoke. Well, she succeeded. If she pisses people off and that results in empty seats, that costs the TSO. They have a right to distance themselves from the politics. Freedom of speech? Certainly! Freedom from consequences? Does anyone have that luxury? It's up to Lisitsa to set her priorities, as it is for her employers as well.



posted on Apr, 7 2015 @ 03:45 PM
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originally posted by: BornAgainAlien
a reply to: JohnnyCanuck


Make whatever statement you need to as an artist...but be prepared to take the flack. If you can't take that, find another line of work.

So Charlie Hebdo was nothing more as, they took the flack and no big deal also according to you ?

And this is where the hyperbole comes in...she has been fired, not fired upon. This ain't no Patrick Henry scenario.

A quick edit to add that there are a lot of artists...Mel Gibson comes to mind...that have skewered their careers because they wanted to press their rights to shoot their mouths off. Or this...NFL Considering New Rule To Penalize Racial Slurs

So what is your take on Pussy Riot?
edit on 7-4-2015 by JohnnyCanuck because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 7 2015 @ 03:57 PM
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a reply to: JohnnyCanuck

According to her she has had also numerous death threats, which isn`t so hard to believe seeing it has been done cloaked on this forum too...so again, the difference isn`t that big.



posted on Apr, 7 2015 @ 04:12 PM
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originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: BornAgainAlien

Awesome, show me these 'filtration camps please.
Show me where they are going to gas ethnic Russians en masse.

Or you can admit she's a filthy liar and got what she deserves.


many were in denial regarding the camps in germany
how'd that work out?

lets not forget that the same gang of american fascists that financed, and praised hitler and the nazis
only to crawl under a rock post war are the very same scum behind the current ukraine shenanigans
which are as old as the great schism.

you libel this artist, yet your politicians being known child murderers, butchers, and pathological liars are your go to for "the truth"

which never needs to snarl in hatred, btw
edit on 7-4-2015 by AdamuBureido because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 7 2015 @ 04:16 PM
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originally posted by: BornAgainAlien
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

With someone who openly says he`s a follower of Stepan Bandera, she makes a hyperbole about it...

We already have proven she did not use hyperbole. 100% complete lie is not an exaggeration. On twitter when people called her out on the things she said she DEFENDED them saying they were right. She was not using hyperbole, she was lying.


...because in her opinion, it`s the best way to get attention for the situation...you can debate if that`s the right way...

If you want to think lies are good you are free to do so. The question is why should she be able to lie without repercussion?


...however, with the West doing the same, she thinks it`s justified to counter such crap.

Can you show me where the West claims Russia is about to gas all non-Russians?


Let`s see how the West is using hyperboles...

Russia wants to take over the Ukraine, no they don`t, they are not stupid and know it will cost them 100.000 soldiers and the cost it brings, and that is when the ultra-nationalists are doing nothing, once they will rise up (most likely will happen in that case) Russia will need 200.000 troops permanently.

That's not hyperbole, that's an opinion based on facts. Her problem is not she had an opinion based on facts, but that she LIED about the facts. Talking about anything the West is doing is logical fallacy, you need to stop.


And Russia can expect at the same time destabilizing in other places, completely bankrupting Russia.

So they are not that stupid, yet the media gets filled with a hyperbole about Russia wanting the Ukraine, but they don`t stop there, they make even a hyperbole about that hyperbole by saying Europe is threatened by Russia.

And the same goes about Putin being Hitler.

So you see, it`s nothing more as tit for tat.

So are you saying anyone in Russia who is making lies about what Putin and Russia is doing should be welcomed with open arms and you will defend them and any repercussions are completely wrong?



posted on Apr, 7 2015 @ 04:17 PM
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originally posted by: AdamuBureido
many were in denial regarding the camps in germany
how'd that work out?

Great, now show me the camps. Or are you admitting they don't exist yet you want to lie as well?



posted on Apr, 7 2015 @ 04:22 PM
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originally posted by: Dimithae
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

It DOES apply to this thread. I am talking about the behavior of the members on here with all the name calling,disrespect,and accusations that are flying around. People need to stop baiting others,stop picking fights,and if you feel you need to argue a point,fine. Argue the point.Not whether someone is a shill or troll or anything else. They are not morons,stupid,idiots or anything else anyone wants to come up with at the moment. This is disrespectful to other members.

The problem being that starting on page 1 the OP and others had no argument to the points, stopped doing so, and used non stop logical fallacies searching for any way possible to use this as an excuse to hate on the West and support Russia.

At that point you are a shill, and I will call you out on it. WineAndCheese is a shill, not because we disagree on a subject, but because there is only one outcome on any post he makes. Russia says nukes should be banned, he says yes ban them. Russia says they want to nuke America he supports it and says nuke them. Russia says Ukraine should be free he says yes they should. Russia says Ukraine is theirs he will post it's theirs. There is no thought or reason only blind support. Shill. I did not call the OP a shill, I think he is just hate filled and will support anything that is anti west.



posted on Apr, 7 2015 @ 04:27 PM
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originally posted by: BornAgainAlien
a reply to: JohnnyCanuck



Make whatever statement you need to as an artist...but be prepared to take the flack. If you can't take that, find another line of work.


So Charlie Hebdo was nothing more as, they took the flack and no big deal also according to you ?

Yes. If someone decides to stop supporting them and stop buying their product I have NO problem with that. Why do you think they should be able to post whatever they want without being hit in their wallet? Do you think people should be forced to buy their product after statements they disagree with?



posted on Apr, 7 2015 @ 04:29 PM
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originally posted by: Dimithae
a reply to: JohnnyCanuck

And if she were using the TSO to promote her views on Ukraine then I would say they have every right to do something about it.But on her own blog? No freedom of speech is freedom of speech. Its either that or outlaw freedom of speech for gods sake.

She is not prevented from blogging, she can keep saying whatever false hateful things she wants. What she can't do is say it without repercussion.

Again, we are not talking about her being critical of actual things, she LIED, she made things up, disgusting awful things that were not true, and when corrected on twitter she DEFENDED her post saying she was right refusing to listen to anyone who corrected her lies.

Stop lying, or face the consequences.

ETA: Just to go further, you do NOT have the freedom to lie. She actually has no right at all to say the things she said. Free speech does not cover lies.
edit on 7-4-2015 by OccamsRazor04 because: (no reason given)


(post by AdamuBureido removed for a manners violation)


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