Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
- Yes, that's fair enough. But you have to admit that in the general discussion (certainly in terms of our mainstream media) the 2 are often confused or simply not made distinct in any way?

They are indeed, all the time.

- Well I know that is the fear or impression some have but I really just don't believe there is much to be so concerned about.
I just don't see people up-rooting and going off in numbers anyone needs to worry about.

The problem is, if we have a free movement approach and discover it is a worse case senario, then the damage will be done quickly and on a large scale.

Most people love their home, it's where everything and everyone they know is.

Problem is if their family moves to say France, and other members of their family follow and it continues there will finally be no reason to return to their original homeland as their family will be with them.

(as anyone with even half a brain could have told anyone......but it all adds to stirring the pot and feeding the fears, right?).

Many of the fears are real, but the mass european immigration was indeed blown out of proportion.

- True but that is how our country came to be now. We are a nation of immigrants and have regularly had waves of immigration since year dot.

We are indeed a island of immigrants, but we need to watch our living space.

Originally posted by UK Wizard
They are indeed, all the time.

- Hooray! Something we agree on.

I knew it, neither of us is surely so 1 demensional we couldn't agree at all!?

The problem is, if we have a free movement approach and discover it is a worse case senario, then the damage will be done quickly and on a large scale.

- Yeah but that applies to all 'what if's.
'What's likely' is a more useful exercise.

Problem is if their family moves to say France, and other members of their family follow and it continues there will finally be no reason to return to their original homeland as their family will be with them.

- OK but how many does that happen with?
Funnily enough a member of my family moved to France. It was a fabulous place, I really enjoyed visiting them and would have thought about such a move.... but I never did.

I think that is how it is for most people.

I want to move to Spain at some point in the future.....I hope I'm able to and I can see no reason why not.

Many of the fears are real, but the mass european immigration was indeed blown out of proportion.

- Well, like I said Wizard, whatever was real or imagined the paranoia was certainly given a serious boost with that little story.

We are indeed a island of immigrants, but we need to watch our living space.

- As I said before Wizard, there is loads of room in the UK.

Just so long as everyone stops trying to live in the SE corner of England.

[edit on 24-12-2004 by sminkeypinkey]

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
- Hooray! Something we agree on.

I'm still not voting Labour

- OK but how many does that happen with?
Funnily enough a member of my family moved to France. It was a fabulous place, I really enjoyed visiting them and would have thought about such a move.... but I never did.

It was just a hypothectical situation... not a very good hypothectical situation...but one none the less.

- As I said before Wizard, there is loads of room in the UK.

Just so long as everyone stops trying to live in the SE corner of England.

The thing is, what level of population do we want... its currently 60 million, I personally would prefer a population of around 50million, some people want more, some less.
It all depends....

As I said before Wizard, there is loads of room in the UK.

Thats ok then, come on in! theres plenty of room here. Dont worry about what the majority of the country thinks on immigration and destroying our culture isn't democracy great!

Large parts of some northern towns are being demolished because no-one wants to live in the housing there (Newcastle is notorious for this at the moment).

The idea that the countryside would be concreted over is a myth.

.....and since when was British culture (whatever that is meant to mean.....in my experience most English people think British means English anyway) under any kind of threat?

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
Large parts of some northern towns are being demolished because no-one wants to live in the housing there (Newcastle is notorious for this at the moment).

Thats not my fault, immigrants just don't want to live up north, the wages are higher down south.

The idea that the countryside would be concreted over is a myth.

A quote from the BBC web site:
The government wants to build 478,000 homes in the East of England over the next 20 years

and another:
A report by consultants Levett-Therivel, published in October, said the new houses would cause a water crisis, threaten landscapes and destroy wildlife.


[edit on 2-1-2005 by UK Wizard]

Originally posted by UK Wizard
Thats not my fault, immigrants just don't want to live up north, the wages are higher down south.

- Er, what do you mean "fault"?
What has that got to do with anything?

The point surely is that there is room in the UK, we simply need a sane planning system.
Whether or not it is for additional immigration is not even the issue on this point.
The SE of England cannot be allowed to go on causing the distorting imbalance it does for the rest of the country.

(You might also wish to consider that ever increasing housing costs and congestion are going to force this issue eventually)

A quote from the BBC web site:
The government wants to build 478,000 homes in the East of England over the next 20 years

- Well unless you live in a single child family (or a family that will remain in the owned parental home) and will inherit an already owned home where are we to house everyone (and this again goes much further than the issue of immigration)?

We have simply not been building sufficient homes for almost 3 decades, this artificially restricted supply is a large part of what is driving up house prices, which is why first time buyers have trouble getting a mortgage, which is how come first time buyers are drying up etc etc.....not to mention the damaging effect this type of inflation has on the wider economy.

(But for some reason that kind of inflation is thought great in certain parts of British society, despite its non-productive nature.)

and another:
A report by consultants Levett-Therivel, published in October, said the new houses would cause a water crisis, threaten landscapes and destroy wildlife.

- ......as people always have claimed about any expansion.

There is a (small 'c') conservative section of UK society that imagines a rural idyll and hoardes of people (especially lower-class - or worse, foreign - type people) coming along and ruining everything with the changes they are believed to bring.

Clearly 500 000 house will cause additional infrastructure requirements, and have an impact (whether it turns out to be so dramatic must surely depend on how it is done) on the environments in which they are situated.....and what?

When has this ever not been so?

Nevertheless these changes are coming, thankfully.

So your quite happy for Britains population to increase to such a level where it becomes crippling to infrastructure, where living standards drop due to reduction in living space, where we are convined to high rise apartment blocks.
A future where Britains enviroment is crippled by pollution and chemicals....

are you happy with a britain that has thrown common sense to the wind.....are you ?

Originally posted by UK Wizard
They are in positions of power...

- You must be joking.

(I meant the optimists have it because the standard predictions of doom and gloom have not come to pass. Even old Malthus got it very wrong even if there is - or must be - some truth in his ideas.)

From the same link:
now growing by another 6.1 million to 65.7 million by 2031.
and
At an annual growth rate of 0.4% a year (the actual growth rate from mid-2001 to mid-2003) our population would pass 200 million in 2308.

- Aren't number games great?

But let's not lose sight of the fact that projecting beyond a certain point is simply playing with numbers....300yrs into the future!? Cooo, they're brave!

Who would have thought the baby boom of 40yrs ago would have turned into the aging population of today. What happened to the human population and its expected peak this century, hmmmm?

Have you heard the one about 'the fact' that if Japanese reproductive rates stay at their current level there will be no ethnic Japanese left by 3000?

Interesting game, but there are so many assumptions in all of that that it is meaningless......

.....and I'd be looking for what that might tell you about where the person relaying the 'facts' is coming from rather than any necessary 'truth' in any of that.

I guess we see the world from a different point of view.

- I'd say so Wizard.

.....and I'm the old(er ) guy and you're the younger one, I'm supposed to be the jaded one seeing nothing but doom and gloom, what happened to your youthful optimism you're meant to have?