Fascism: What It Is, What It Isn't, And How To Spot It

a reply to: dragonridr

Depends of the OSCE observer you question ... The croatian Ruža Tomašić didn't find anything wrong and 95000 polling stations had webcams to follow the activities.

If there were irregularities they are unlikely to change anything in the final result, unlike what happened in Florida during Bush Jr second presidential run. I'm kind of surprised you would like to see the second candidate Gennady Zyuganov take over Putin. Do you know he is a communist ?

The only modification to the Russian presidential election process was carried during Medvedev presidency, extending the presidential mandate from 4 to 6 years. The only restriction is that you can't apply for more than two consecutive mandate.

a reply to: simplesurfer

a reply to: theultimatebelgianjoke

Unlike what happened in Ukraine, police never shot any protester, there were only administrative arrests.

Thank you for acknowledging that the Berkut really did kill anti-Yanukovych protesters. For all its flaws, the current Ukrainian government is a step further away from Fascism. Back on topic.

a reply to: theultimatebelgianjoke

An oligarchy is not necessarily Fascist. An oligarchy can respect the rights of individuals. In fact, a true oligarchy can render the state powerless, which is the opposite of Fascism.

a reply to: DJW001

I already suggested you to restrain your intellectual dishonesty by avoiding to draw conclusion about what people may think.

Maidan Snipers Trained in Poland



About oligarchy and the way it is fuelled : do you make any distinction between corruption and lobbying ?

a reply to: theultimatebelgianjoke

About oligarchy and the way it is fuelled : do you make any distinction between corruption and lobbying ?

Absolutely: lobbying becomes corruption when the lobbyist provides gifts or cash to the law maker.

originally posted by: theultimatebelgianjoke
a reply to: DJW001

I already suggested you to restrain your intellectual dishonesty by avoiding to draw conclusion about what people may think.

Maidan Snipers Trained in Poland

 

About oligarchy and the way it is fuelled : do you make any distinction between corruption and lobbying ?

Really which one? There were 3 police officers arrested caught on film firing at protestors. There were other snipers as well but they were not cauGht so who where they and who trained them in poland. Or is he referring to the berkut? They indeed had training in Poland this is just a wild accusation with no evidence. Maiden snipers were police and protestors of that there is no doubt. The protestors organized there own sniper teams after the police started using theirs. Neither side is imo scent so not sure of your point really

a reply to: DJW001

OK. So let's consider a political regime/ideology that would be officially recognized as fascism by an international organization. After a while - and heavy lobbying - the said organization retracts itself and removes the fascist label. What could we conclude ? That lobbying can ultimately decide what can be considered as fascism or not ? That the said international organization by allowing itself to be the subject of lobbying is actually corrupt ? What if those labelled as fascist make sure they remove the label in order to start peace talks but nothing came out of those talks ?

UN General Assembly Resolution 3379



a reply to: dragonridr

Poland is a NATO country ...

a reply to: theultimatebelgianjoke

OK. So let's consider a political regime/ideology that would be officially recognized as fascism by an international organization.

Why did you link to an Arab sponsored UN resolution? It does not say that Israel is fascist, it just says that its policies are discriminatory. There is absolutely no point in your participating in this thread if you don't go back to the beginning and read the basic definitions. If you just want to hate on Israel, there are plenty of other thread to do it on.

Once again, apartheid is not Fascism and not all Fascist states have practiced apartheid. In fact, some Fascist states pride themselves on making no racial or ethnic distinctions whatsoever: everyone is subject to the State.

a reply to: theultimatebelgianjoke

Poland is a NATO country ..

Funny you should quote Janusz Ryszard Korwin-Mikke:

Korwin-Mikke is a self-declared monarchist and thinks that democracy is the "stupidest form of government ever conceived"[11] where "two bums from under the beer booth, have twice more to say than the university professor".[12] He claims that "This leads to stupidity, defraudation and corruption" and "this is how the Athenian democracy ended".[12]

[Edit for brevity--DJW001]

Other provocative statements include the claim that there is no written proof Adolf Hitler was aware of the Holocaust and that the difference between rape and consensual sex is very subtle.[snip] During the 2012 Summer Paralympics, Korwin-Mikke wrote that the general public should "not see the disabled on television".[snip] In regards to welfare, he has stated his belief that: “If someone gives money to an unemployed person he should have his hand cut off because he is destroying the morale of the people."[snip] In 2014, Korwin-Mikke was fined by the President of the European Parliament for 'expressing himself in a racist manner'

en.wikipedia.org...

This brings us to the "how to spot it" portion of the thread. Korwin-Mikke is the founder of the Coalition for the Renewal of the Republic - Freedom and Hope. "Renewal" is a typical Fascist buzz-word. It suggests that the nation has faded from its past glory, and its only hope is a violent shift to the right. One must also suspect any party that needs to include the word "freedom" in its title. Just so we understand clearly what's going on here, wikipedia points out:

The abbreviation of party's name in Polish is the same as last name of its founder (KORWiN)

en.wikipedia.org...

a reply to: DJW001

Once again, don't try to suggest people what they should say ...

The two latest statement of mine you've been unable to discard by shouting 'off-topic' were :

So let's consider a political regime/ideology that would be officially recognized as fascism by an international organization. After a while - and heavy lobbying - the said organization retracts itself and removes the fascist label. What could we conclude ? That lobbying can ultimately decide what can be considered as fascism or not ? That the said international organization by allowing itself to be the subject of lobbying is actually corrupt ? What if those labelled as fascist make sure they remove the label in order to start peace talks but nothing came out of those talks ?

UN General Assembly Resolution 3379

AND

You said earlier that serving 'militia or armed forces to defend your society as a condition of citizenship is not Fascism'. I agree. What do you think of a regime that would jail conscientious objectors ?

a reply to: theultimatebelgianjoke

You really need to read what others post. The UN resolution that you link to does not accuse Israel of being a Fascist state. I have patiently explained, at least twice before on this thread, that apartheid is not a necessary attribute of Fascism, and yet you continue to act as though it is.

As for a regime that jails conscientious objectors, it, too, may be a liberal democracy if it uses popular elections to choose its government. Jailing conscientious objectors is nearly universal everywhere... but the United States.

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: theultimatebelgianjoke

You really need to read what others post. The UN resolution that you link to does not accuse Israel of being a Fascist state. I have patiently explained, at least twice before on this thread, that apartheid is not a necessary attribute of Fascism, and yet you continue to act as though it is.

As for a regime that jails conscientious objectors, it, too, may be a liberal democracy if it uses popular elections to choose its government. Jailing conscientious objectors is nearly universal everywhere... but the United States.

Think ill throw gas on the fire.
www.atlanticcouncil.org...

a reply to: dragonridr

But are the analysts right? The evidence is compelling. Fascist regimes have charismatic dictators with hyper-masculine personality cults. These regimes generally evince a hyper-nationalist ethos, a cult of violence, mass mobilization of youth, high levels of repression, powerful propaganda machines, and imperialist projects. Fascist regimes are hugely popular—usually because the charismatic leader appeals to broad sectors of the population. Putin and his Russia fit the bill perfectly.

Exactly. They also point out the collusion between Church and State. Please note that apartheid is not an issue. Putin prides himself on Russian culture trumping racial differences. He even founded a special Jewish library, since Jews and Muslims are "culturally Russian."

Spotting Fascism can be difficult, as contemporary Fascists are hesitant to refer to themselves as such. Generally, any group with a charismatic leader that espouses radically "conservative" ideas is suspect. These groups generally place the collective good of an identified "nation" or "people," das Volk, in German, народ, narod, in Russian, above the rights and freedoms of the individual. It is misleading to translate these terms as "people," as that implies a democratic connotation that is totally absent.

Fascists embrace the myth of a prior golden age before the Enlightenment led to the triumph of reason over superstition and, thus, the rejection of traditional religious values. It denies the ability of the individual to find his or her own moral compass, based on reason tempered with compassion. Fascist groups believe in an absolute morality imposed from on high and enforced ruthlessly by the political hierarchy.

This belief in a former glory inspires Fascist groups to use medieval fonts and heraldic symbolism. We see this in Ukraine, where both the ultra-nationalist in Kyiv and the Russian backed separatists in Donbass use medieval lettering and symbols.

Fascists have an ambivalent attitude towards modernity. They often embrace contemporary art and music that they deem "revolutionary," while rejecting art that expresses individuality as "decadent."

a reply to: DJW001

I'll say a new form of fascists is appearing we see it in Russia. This makes it hard to label it in a classic sense but the signs are there. When you compare Putin to Hitler the similarities actually become scary. I truly hope he doesn't continue down this path he's been following because if he does will likely see the same results the start of a world war.

a reply to: dragonridr

Don't worry, only the US is helping sunni islamist groups, Russia is not. Russia is tied with representative of Shia islam. Al-Quada : sunnis, ISIS: sunnis, Al-Nursa : sunnis, Boko-Haram : sunnis, Hamas : sunnis ... The only paramilitary shiite group is the Hezbollah. Now the islamists are teaming with the Nazi-nostalgics in Ukraine :

Islamic Battalions, Stocked With Chechens, Aid Ukraine in War With Rebels

And people who are really willing to get rid of ISIS are getting busy :

Russia, Egypt support forming anti-ISIS coalition with Syria

My guess is that Al-sisi's days are number if he turn his back from the US. A leader supervising a military junta can only stay in place if he serves the interests of those who put them there.

originally posted by: theultimatebelgianjoke
a reply to: dragonridr

Don't worry, only the US is helping sunni islamist groups, Russia is not. Russia is tied with representative of Shia islam. Al-Quada : sunnis, ISIS: sunnis, Al-Nursa : sunnis, Boko-Haram : sunnis, Hamas : sunnis ... The only paramilitary shiite group is the Hezbollah. Now the islamists are teaming with the Nazi-nostalgics in Ukraine :

Islamic Battalions, Stocked With Chechens, Aid Ukraine in War With Rebels

And people who are really willing to get rid of ISIS are getting busy :

Russia, Egypt support forming anti-ISIS coalition with Syria

My guess is that Al-sisi's days are number if he turn his back from the US. A leader supervising a military junta can only stay in place if he serves the interests of those who put them there.

Of course Russia is worried there are a lot if chechens that are fighting in the middle east. And they don't like Russia. How long do you really think it's going to be before the check end start attacking Russia again. They are already looking for reasons to fight Russia like in ukraine. Bad part is they will be coming back from the middle east with combat experience something the Russian military lacks.

As far as Egypt they will side with Saudi Arabia. In case you haven't figured it out sunni and shia have been battling for control for centuries. The us backed Saudi Arabia who in turn backed sunni. Those days are over though now that the us doesn't ha vet a need for Saudi oil it is no longer a vital national intrest. Now what any of this has to do with fascism and how Russia is in the grips of fascism I haven't a clue.

Do you think that facists support Islam because id say the opposite would be true. They would be a natural enemy of Islam by there very nature. Especially since Russia is Orthodox Christians they have a very low tolerance for islam.

a reply to: dragonridr

Russia can collaborate with both Shiites (Iran) and Sunnis (Al-Sisi Egypt) while the US is strictly narrowing it's cooperation with Sunnis.
The agreement about the Iran deal will help restarting relations (if passed) but will hardly make the US look sympathetic in the ME region any time soon. The fact that US and Russian representatives were in the same room during the talks could also have helped rebuilding relations between these two.
This alliance between neo-Nazis and islamists is at first sight counter-natural but it's just another example that these groups rely more on their personal interest rather than so-called political or religious motivations.
In order to find who is behind these groups, it's better to consider who they don't attack rather than their intended targets.
It's kind of surprising that the Kiev government is OK to wage war in the western part of the territory it still own (but do not control anymore) but not in Crimea. Implicit acknowledgement that they do not consider Crimea as theirs and that they don't care the fate of the population they just plan to administer ?

a reply to: theultimatebelgianjoke

This is off topic, but Russia and Persia have long been at odds. This rivalry will soon be heating up as they vie for influence in Central Asia. Iran knows that the United States is a more lucrative market than Russia, so be prepared for a major shift in the geopolitical axis.