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Can there be recognition of what is - beyond any and all experiencing?

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posted on May, 4 2015 @ 04:47 AM
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a reply to: bb23108
I am glad you enjoyed the links.
I will post this quote to help clarify.

What you are actually is beyond words, but it would be not untrue to say you are nothing whatsoever other than pure, infinite, disembodied consciousness/intelligence; a field of miraculous infinite light; God dreaming itself; an infinite point of pure potential; or the infinite implications of nothing whatsoever.

The immediate presentation of this unspeakable actuality is the field of your experience, which is an instantaneously appearing virtual field of Radiant Presence as apparent qualities. This is the actuality of which every/ and any/ thing that you think exists consists. This is inclusive and complete; nothing whatever other than this field exists. In short, the entirety of Reality is the "bubble" of YOUR experience, the field of Radiant Presence, which alone exists.

This is the totality of Reality. This is not theoretical, but is actually, immediately real; always the case right here right now.
theopendoorway.org...

Of course, the actual complete and full realization of this is another matter - it requires a great undoing of the patterns of egoity (point-of-view) in every aspect of the body-mind, gross, subtle, and causal.

The best way would to realize that you are not the body or mind - that the body is just colour and movement happening and the mind is just thought (words, images) appearing. You are not doing any of the moving - it is just happening. All colour or sound, all sensation is just happening and you are just the witness of the show.

Assuming that you have control over the movie is what causes the angst. It is just a movie - you are not doing it - it is just happening.
But that is very scary for the mind.




posted on May, 4 2015 @ 05:00 AM
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a reply to: ImaFungi

But too me I can just analogize that as being like how once a TV is bought and set up, if it was aware of the images broadcast on it, it could say the fundamental fact that images consistently appear on/in me has never changed since I was first plugged in. Sure I am not always on, we can say I go to sleep.

The tv shows a movie - the moving, ever changing image moves across the surface that you are.
You never appear IN the image - the image appears in/on you.
The image is constantly changing but that which it appears in/on is never changing.



posted on May, 4 2015 @ 06:01 AM
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a reply to: bb23108




It seems clear that no limited point-of-view will ever know what even a single object is, in reality. But can one know what an object is, by going beyond all points-of-view? If so, what "position" would one have to be in?


From a limited point of view ... There must be so many objects we are not even aware of
The objects we are aware of are limited in that respect as is our view of Reality

To truly know the Universe and all it contains one would have to have the vantage point of the Higher Intelligence or God or whatever that created it of which we are but a small part ... if one believes in such a thing



posted on May, 4 2015 @ 06:24 AM
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posted on May, 4 2015 @ 06:28 AM
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originally posted by: donktheclown


What do you think? Can there be recognition of what any object or being actually is in reality?
a reply to: bb23108

I don't think we, in this reality, can possibly know. Not with, like you said, our limited perception. The computer in front of you is basically empty space, yet you and I perceive such things as solid. We know darn well that it's only a very tiny bit of solid and even that isn't solid. I think we know reality once we cross over to our spiritual base of existence. We simply can't see the smallest of small with our scientific equipment, yet.


The fact that you can conceptualize the actual material structure of the computer before you, yet cannot perceive this structure, suggests that the human intellect can know the truth about an object that exists in reality. Abstraction, inference, ramification and set theories, and honest inquiry are the tools that would be used in such an effort, and it can be done. If you can know that what you are perceiving is not the truth about what exists, then the hard part is already behind you.



posted on May, 4 2015 @ 12:35 PM
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originally posted by: Itisnowagain
The best way would to realize that you are not the body or mind - that the body is just colour and movement happening and the mind is just thought (words, images) appearing. You are not doing any of the moving - it is just happening. All colour or sound, all sensation is just happening and you are just the witness of the show.


Assuming that you have control over the movie is what causes the angst. It is just a movie - you are not doing it - it is just happening.
But that is very scary for the mind.

I hear what you are saying, and have noticed that what you often post is very insightful. But, as we have often discussed in the past, just having insight into non-dualism and/or that our fundamental being is Awareness - is not realization.

It is a mental insight, and may give us a glimpse of the Witness consciousness. The fact that so many of these new age philosophers constantly say things like Peter Brown does (quoted below), makes it obvious that indeed there is some recognition that "we" are the Witness - but it still seems mentally based, and as such is limited.

From the Peter Brown website link you posted:
"In the present moment it is always possible for the inherent Intelligence, YOUR awareness, to perceive this actual, complete condition of Reality as it is, transcendental Radiant Presence; since in actuality that is all that is ever being perceived."

In other words, why is it always about YOUR perceiving? Reality doesn't perceive. It is not separate from anything, so Reality needs no such mechanism of perception.

The fact that this kind of perceiving or "notice the happening of everything" is always at the base of this present surge of many new-age philosophers' arguments, tells us that it is still a brain-mind-based phenomenon.

Reality is acausal and its intrinsic force is the source of all modifications - but there is no YOU in Reality. Absolutely no YOU. Why is it always being sold as "YOUR" awareness? (I imagine because it wouldn't sell otherwise!)

This is why almost no one ever goes beyond this mental insight. There is a great Yoga involved with the actual realization of the Witness, that involves real self-transcendence at every level of the body-mind.

The Divine Reality does not avoid the body-mind - It completely invades it with its intrinsic force, and transforms it - if we completely avail ourselves to That. This is a profound process that opens the whole body-mind, including the physical body. It opens the heart fully, in all three stations, and culminates with the dissolution of attention at the root of the right side of the (causal) heart.

In that release of attention, there is no YOU. There is simply the Witness. Do you think any ego, no matter how subtle it is with all of its insights, is going to opt for that dissolution? This final gesture necessarily requires Grace, and that Grace only avails itself when the whole body-mind is transformed by the Divine, because until this Yogic sign is the case, it implies that there are spaces where the self-contraction (that is the ego-I) is still operative and hiding out.

The Divine does not shrink from existence, even relative to these physical body-minds. It embraces it fully without fear, and thereby utterly transforms it with its inherent Energy. Then the Witness is obvious as our fundamental being for real - even as we are apparently associated with these body-minds.

But to realize it moment to moment, to consciously and always stand as the very Witness, that is not the case until the yoga of the Divine embracing the whole body-mind yields the signs of real transformative heart-based Love in and as the WHOLE body-mind, not just as intense concentration in the brain-mind and above the head (like many of them appear to have). Until then, all such experiences are still ego-bound - albeit perhaps even very subtle, mystical, powerful, beyond the mortality of the body-mind, etc.

Of course, we can consider it, glimpse it, even be inspired each day with our tacit understanding and glimpsing of this truth. It is one of the most enjoyable matters to consider, in my view - and I do appreciate your input relative to them.

edit on 5/4/2015 by bb23108 because:



posted on May, 4 2015 @ 01:24 PM
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a reply to: bb23108

What I take away from what you wrote, or perhaps a realization, something I have realized, but related to what you just said, about the YOU;

It is because it is all about that YOU, experiencing as much pleasure as it can. That is what it is all about, all the YOUs are competing with one another to have access to as much pleasure as they can (pleasure in a general sense, feeling good, pleasure being whatever the YOU defines it as 'having nice materials, having nice foods to eat', happiness would equal pleasure, pleasure being that which is not pain/discomfort etc., unless the YOU can exist over time and determines for itself that certain pains are pleasures for it).

So the new age stuff is pretty much saying 'control your pleasures', because it is possible to desire infinite things, and the more things you desire, and then the more things you do not get, you are inviting more possibilities for pain. By setting your pleasures at simple or low levels (similar to the idea of being grateful) this is a valid trick, to make acquiring personal peace and happiness easier.

But it may be true, for people, for many people, maybe for all people, that the most valuable thing about existing on earth, or at all, is experiencing as much goodness as you can before you die. Thus, we can understand the state of the world.



posted on May, 4 2015 @ 05:48 PM
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a reply to: artistpoet
Right, and this is why the argument that everything is a modification of Reality (Consciousness-Light) makes the most sense even on a logical basis to me; because if everything is already arising in Reality, then Reality already perfectly Knows what everything IS, without needing any mechanism of knowing or perceiving - which necessarily involve point-of-view and are therefore inherently limited and separate from the object(s).


edit on 5/4/2015 by bb23108 because:



posted on May, 4 2015 @ 06:00 PM
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originally posted by: ImaFungi
What I take away from what you wrote, or perhaps a realization, something I have realized, but related to what you just said, about the YOU;

It is because it is all about that YOU, experiencing as much pleasure as it can. That is what it is all about, all the YOUs are competing with one another to have access to as much pleasure as they can (pleasure in a general sense, feeling good, pleasure being whatever the YOU defines it as 'having nice materials, having nice foods to eat', happiness would equal pleasure, pleasure being that which is not pain/discomfort etc., unless the YOU can exist over time and determines for itself that certain pains are pleasures for it).


Right, and one attribute ascribed to Reality is Love-Bliss. So perhaps our drive for experiencing pleasure is a misdirected urge to be in union with our inherent nature - Reality Itself - Love-Bliss Itself.

And for this reason, only Reality ultimately satisfies this urge to union - because all conditional forms constantly change, betray us by not completely fulfilling our great desire, and then disappear. Whereas with Reality, one could be so in Love, in Union, that there is no more separation, no more YOU or ego-I.



posted on May, 4 2015 @ 09:11 PM
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a reply to: bb23108

Once we exist, we require relatively continuous mindful effort to remain existing. To cease all mindful effort is the relative of death. The world creates our minds, our minds create our minds, our minds create our world, until our minds no longer can. If our means to remain existing are relatively easy, our states of mind can be relatively easy, if our means to remain existing are increasingly difficult, our states of mind may be increasingly difficult. A monk who is promised food, can do whatever they want with their mind, as a person who maybe builds furniture for a living is so familiar with his trade that his mind does whatever it wants day to day. Our minds occupying tasks is how we escape death. We are continual means to ends to means to ends to means to ends until the ultimate end of ourselves. If we enjoy being in a mindless state day in and day out, good for us. If we enjoy attempting to think of poetry day in and day out, good for us. The only law appears to be suffer the consequences of your actions, and ignorance of the law is not innocence.



posted on May, 4 2015 @ 11:04 PM
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a reply to: ImaFungi

it doesn't require mindful effort... look around you, how many people are on a destructive auto pilot set forth by their body/mind/emotional volitions, acting and reacting on all those stages. But you're right, its a cycle of creation, and junk in junk out. Our minds are imbalanced, and therefore our world.

That is why we must be mindful and skillful with our actions, so we don't suffer the consequences, or let others do it for us either.

on a side note, I once had a dream that we were all a field of fungi, that all shared a dream that span across all of them, and they were dreaming of being human in a universe much like our own, weird dream



posted on May, 5 2015 @ 11:32 AM
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originally posted by: bb23108
But, as we have often discussed in the past, just having insight into non-dualism and/or that our fundamental being is Awareness - is not realization.

It is a mental insight, and may give us a glimpse of the Witness consciousness. The fact that so many of these new age philosophers constantly say things like Peter Brown does (quoted below), makes it obvious that indeed there is some recognition that "we" are the Witness - but it still seems mentally based, and as such is limited.

Peter Brown can only speak using words so the message will always be 'mentally based', especially if one has not seen what he is speaking about. I can tell you everything there is to know about eating an apple but if you have never seen or eaten an apple then it will be heard (received) as a mental insight.





From the Peter Brown website link you posted:
"In the present moment it is always possible for the inherent Intelligence, YOUR awareness, to perceive this actual, complete condition of Reality as it is, transcendental Radiant Presence; since in actuality that is all that is ever being perceived."

In other words, why is it always about YOUR perceiving? Reality doesn't perceive. It is not separate from anything, so Reality needs no such mechanism of perception.

The fact that this kind of perceiving or "notice the happening of everything" is always at the base of this present surge of many new-age philosophers' arguments, tells us that it is still a brain-mind-based phenomenon.

Reality is acausal and its intrinsic force is the source of all modifications - but there is no YOU in Reality. Absolutely no YOU. Why is it always being sold as "YOUR" awareness? (I imagine because it wouldn't sell otherwise!)

The only thing you cannot ever negate is your own being - you absolutely know that you are - the mind translates 'being' into 'I am'. That 'I am' then attaches itself to something, the non conceptual becomes an illusory concept just by adding a word to the 'I am' - 'I am old', 'I am young', 'I am male, female, a doctor, a wife', 'I am the body - mind'.

But what you really are is 'being'. I am being. Being what though? Not being something in particular but being all that is.

The dreamer and the dream is the entire 'thing' - it is not two (non dual) - the dream and the dreamer cannot be separated. That which is witnessing the dream cannot change the dream - the dream environment just appears.

edit on 5-5-2015 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 5 2015 @ 11:43 AM
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There is only ever this - yet this constantly appears different.



posted on May, 5 2015 @ 02:58 PM
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originally posted by: Itisnowagain
There is only ever this - yet this constantly appears different.

Yes, as long as there is a body-mind to perceive such happenings. But when all sense of individuality dissolves and there is no body-mind, what is witnessed in terms of the entire cosmos?

Also, does Peter Brown ever talk about the heart opening in love, or any yogic transformations of the body-mind?



posted on May, 5 2015 @ 04:37 PM
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I usually figure when someone in spirituality is talking about you, they are talking about you in a collective sense.I lean that way, especially when the message is coming from the more respected teachers.

I feel frustrated sometimes reading criticisms of spiritual lines of thought, when individuals entertain mysticism. Depending on one's familiarity;they usually tend to flow with realizing union through insight and subjective experience, or in contrast, confused perceptions, fantasy or self delusion.Imbalance can happen through either end, for me mystical thought requires practicing the ability to shift consciousness.This fluidity is often lost on seekers.

I don't believe in absolutes, so this thread poses some interesting questions.I have found myself trying "look" at what an object could be, in a very visual sense.I believe one's vision is limited to the means we have available to see something.

Your thread brings mind, Plato's Allegory Of The Cave.In philosophical conversation with others, I get alot of feedback suggesting that the cavemen are just trading one setting for another.I have my doubts that was what Plato was trying to illustrate.IMO, the allegory illustrates individuals confined to a world of forms to those who have found different way of looking at things.Sight is not the only sense we have.

I haven't looked into Peter Brown, though hopefully he goes into that.Growing up, I put myself through hell trying to recognize just how much my mind hijacked the perceptions of the world around me.Females, have exercised priceless love and hope trying to get me see what I missed.Thank you, ladies.Since studying esoterica in my early teens, teachings about the heart were to be found in abundance.Unfortunately, life became very dark before I started to understand what they were trying to share with me...

Forgive me, I'm rambling now.Anyways, what I'm getting at is this.As one starts to practice perceiving the energy behind the appearances forms take, it's all to easy to become overwhelmed by the limitless nature of the universe.Practicing working with our hearts, and the LOVE they represent is crucial to perceiving that energy. Kinestetic?Eh, like a spider.That ability makes the difference, once all the walls start tumbling down...

edit on 5-5-2015 by dffrntkndfnml because: grammer



posted on May, 6 2015 @ 12:11 AM
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originally posted by: bb23108

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
There is only ever this - yet this constantly appears different.

Yes, as long as there is a body-mind to perceive such happenings. But when all sense of individuality dissolves and there is no body-mind, what is witnessed in terms of the entire cosmos?

The body is an appearance and so is the mind. The body/mind is perceived.



posted on May, 7 2015 @ 06:42 AM
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originally posted by: Itisnowagain

The body is an appearance and so is the mind. The body/mind is perceived.


Who or what is perceiving the body-mind?

Were you able to find anything from Peter Brown about awakening to love?



posted on May, 7 2015 @ 07:06 AM
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originally posted by: dffrntkndfnml
I don't believe in absolutes, so this thread poses some interesting questions.I have found myself trying "look" at what an object could be, in a very visual sense.I believe one's vision is limited to the means we have available to see something.


To our limited vision, and even any point-of-view that we have about anything, there can always be another pov, so yes, not only is vision limited, but the entire mechanism of attention, which makes point-of-view, thus creating an illusory sense of self - i.e., the experiencer - is inherently limited.

Can such a one (as the subject) ever know what any object truly is, in reality? Or as the thread title asks, is such knowledge possible beyond the experiencer (or subject or pov)?


originally posted by: dffrntkndfnml
Females, have exercised priceless love and hope trying to get me see what I missed.Thank you, ladies.Since studying esoterica in my early teens, teachings about the heart were to be found in abundance.Unfortunately, life became very dark before I started to understand what they were trying to share with me...

I hear you about women - they bring a whole different perspective to what men come up with. They are more the energy principle and men the consciousness principle if we look at this in a traditional Eastern Shiva-Shakti way. Consciousness-Light. Not just Consciousness, not just Light.

The way I see it is, Truth is Truth - it is an absolute, beyond all points-of-view, beyond the subject-object illusion. Truth is One - Consciousness-Light - the forever marriage of the male and female principles in Oneness, and manifesting all apparently conditional forms as modifications of unconditional Consciousness-Light.

So yes, thank God for the ladies!


originally posted by: dffrntkndfnml
what I'm getting at is this.As one starts to practice perceiving the energy behind the appearances forms take, it's all to easy to become overwhelmed by the limitless nature of the universe.Practicing working with our hearts, and the LOVE they represent is crucial to perceiving that energy. Kinestetic?Eh, like a spider.That ability makes the difference, once all the walls start tumbling down...

Yes, but I have noticed that if I surrender to Reality, as non-separate absolute Consciousness-Light, the body-mind does continually get transformed by that Reality which is not separate from, though is prior to, the conditional body-mind and all forms.

edit on 5/7/2015 by bb23108 because:



posted on May, 7 2015 @ 10:58 AM
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originally posted by: bb23108
Can such a one (as the subject) ever know what any object truly is, in reality? Or as the thread title asks, is such knowledge possible beyond the experiencer (or subject or pov)?

In a literal sense, I think probably not.To define it, is to limit it.


originally posted by: bb23108
I hear you about women - they bring a whole different perspective to what men come up with. They are more the energy principle and men the consciousness principle if we look at this in a traditional Eastern Shiva-Shakti way. Consciousness-Light. Not just Consciousness, not just Light.

So yes, thank God for the ladies!

Through love and nurture women have shown me, I have learned about the feminine principle.This goes beyond gender, though I never payed as much attention to it's deeper implications until later on in my life.It's beautiful being able to recognize it more fully in everyone.

The abstract nature of these sharing this kind of information can be a challenge to understand, cloaked in the variety of different context everyone approaches from.My own journey is heavily influenced from the western perspective, I find learning more about eastern spiritual tradition has really gone a long way to helping me cultivate a better sense of balance while enriching my life...

originally posted by: bb23108

The way I see it is, Truth is Truth - it is an absolute, beyond all points-of-view, beyond the subject-object illusion. Truth is One - Consciousness-Light - the forever marriage of the male and female principles in Oneness, and manifesting all apparently conditional forms as modifications of unconditional Consciousness-Light.

Yes, but I have noticed that if I surrender to Reality, as non-separate absolute Consciousness-Light, the body-mind does continually get transformed by that Reality which is not separate from, though is prior to, the conditional body-mind and all forms.

I can relate, but maybe not in those words...

In a direct sense, this thread brings writing of Paramhansa Yogananda to mind.Idk the flowery language involved with these mysteries can leave someone wondering just how perceiving life like this is possible.

I have a long way to go, not really spending much time focusing on siddhis.Life blesses us with gifts as we unravel the present and learn to work more responsibly with the lessons we have learned.I mention this because these lines of thought can be all to alien to those who have been focusing in other spheres.

Our community here has a large component of ideas revolving around conspiracy.God willing, this will help open the doors for others to step out and practice thinking outside the box.You can only take in so much, before you start searching deeper for answers on roads less traveled.Free falling down the rabbit hole, I realized the endless possibilities of trying to get to the bottom of what exactly is going on here.Scary, yet necessary to help make something of myself.

For me, the Allegory Of The Cave was a useful tool for illustrating the need to learn to look past appearances and become more familiar with the energies that images represent.I liken my duller awareness to becoming entranced by a rather novel kaleidoscope.The geometry in the shapes, inviting one to experiment with just how we make adjustments.Idk, how long I enjoyed admiring the moon while chasing my own tail, lol.

There is this man, Carlos Castenada who's writings are considered a form of mythology by many.He explores this concept of stalking in his works.A twist of fate happened when I recognized how stalking could be applied to various forms.I struggle though, when it comes to trying to translate how this could be.Poetry and the arts do it best.

Eh, his books gave me the courage I needed to draw down the moon, and have a more intimate relationship with mother nature.She's so hard to get, yet her touch is priceless.Magical, always trying to find a way to bring out the best in us.I lament sometimes, the way science puts her on a rack and attempts to force her to spill her secrets.Don't make her scream, while ignoring her gentle whispers everyday.Her love is not for sale.

One shouldn't have to become a hero in their own minds first, to learn these lessons.Only humility is required to break down the barriers that separate us.It can be an endless war until, one recognizes their own reflection in the eyes looking back at you.Suffering blinds one in darkness.Sometimes you need that though, to hear your own heart beat.

I don't feel lonely anymore, this love is on a whole other level.I really wonder how I forgot this lesson, and how long she has seen in me what I haven't Idk, live and learn right?Makes for an epic romance
:thumbsup:



edit:I get carried away, when I get emotional about things.The point I'm trying to make is that the heart's ability to feel vibrations enables one to hopefully balance the visual sense with other information.I feel this is important in order to feel comfortable learning to handle whatever life can through at you.Then the whole pov, subject/object, dualistic appearance of reality can more easily be resolved. It can be almost like living on a new planet, the difference of perspective.

When you learn to question appearances, you lean and learn to trust principles.

edit on 7-5-2015 by dffrntkndfnml because: edit

edit on 7-5-2015 by dffrntkndfnml because: spacing

edit on 7-5-2015 by dffrntkndfnml because: added part about principles



posted on May, 7 2015 @ 11:30 AM
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originally posted by: RoScoLaz4
all we have are our senses. everything we ever see, hear, feel, taste, touch or do stems from our ability to interpret them, with the tools available to us. but our imagination can go further. we can imagine more than we can experience. it's a gift.


I'm wondering about that? Do you think we can really think of things outside of our 6 senses and 4 dimensions?




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