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Many states want to eliminate "Exit Exams" in order for a student to graduate from High School.

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posted on Apr, 6 2015 @ 04:02 PM
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a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

I wouldn't be opposed to teaching basic computing skills up to and including basic programming exercises. I'm tired as an IT person being asked how to use some obscure feature of excel or word. If you know basic programming concepts, you can write macros or formulas in excel. There really is no excuse for not knowing how to use a computer these days, and there are FAR too many people who still don't.




posted on Apr, 6 2015 @ 04:25 PM
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a reply to: Krazysh0t

I took pre-calc in 12th grade with five other seniors back in the early seventies. I went room to room with mostly the same kids, our math 4 teacher was also our physics teacher but in a different room.

We got to help each other in the class, and everyone did pretty well. When you have such a small group it is nice.

When I went to college I tested out of a year and a half of college, but still had to take the highest level math to establish a grade. I only had to take the Biology because of my major, even though I could have tested out of them I still needed to take them. I also had to take all the english, but started in advanced english classes. I was sick of english from highschool. Of course, you can't skip stuff like bowling or archery, it is required to take these or gym.

It was something to do, but my daughter was doing the same stuff I was doing in pre-calc in Algebra back in the nineties. I helped her, but she got that assignment wrong, I taught her how to figure out the formulas, she didn't have to. She was just supposed to choose a formula from a list to plug them into. That is not teaching a kid to think, that is teaching them to plug and play.

Same with my granddaughters work, it is all plug and play. That does not create intellect, all that does is to teach them to follow directions. This is not the math I loved, where you got to build your ability to comprehend things on your own so you could go out and find things on your own.

They need to teach these kids how to budget, they do not even offer a class anymore in the local school. Just accounting, which is structured to learn to work for a business, not to be able to budget your own stuff. Not even Home Ec or any shops are offered anymore, you have to go to those down in Marquette at a special school after you graduate. I loved wood and metal shop. I took two semesters of drafting too. They do not offer that anymore, it is all done on computers.

My daughter works with computers all day long, imputing data for a contractor at hospitals around the country. She does not need much math skills for that. Most people who use computers do not use math much. The basic maths are very important, as is some geometry but much of what I have been seeing is never going to be used and it does not build comprehension like it did when we were in these classes, it is not the same now as it was even ten years ago.

Go work with a sophmore on their math, you will see what I mean. It is getting to the point of stupid and the teachers can do nothing about it. I talked to two math teachers I know, and they said they do not like it but they have to teach it the way that they are told to teach it. But they like their job and they are not going to rock the boat.



posted on Apr, 7 2015 @ 07:18 AM
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a reply to: rickymouse

I took similar routes in my high school, but I went to high school from 99 - 03, so after your daughter went to school. I was able to take enough math to take AP calc 1 AND 2. I took computer science (ap again). As for science, I took chemistry, biology, then physics (strangely not calculus based though...). I took honors and gt classes as well. Oh and ap economics (macro and micro).

In fact, my BIGGEST complaint about schooling was history classes and science classes. Science tended to be overly dumbed down at times when it didn't have to be and history is just straight up lies (seriously, rarely anything you see in a high school history textbook aren't lies; it's almost all statist propaganda). They did teach me how the government works in ninth grade, so that was cool. Oh and critical thought. Critical thinking isn't taught heavily enough in grade school, even among honors and gt classes.

It was only as I was graduating were they rolling out the standardized tests for each grade. Those things are a joke and have seriously degraded the quality of content taught at schools.



posted on Apr, 7 2015 @ 10:24 AM
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a reply to: Krazysh0t

I went high school from 69-73. My generation is what developed computers and the technology. Our generation hired the people to bring upon the computer changes that are occurring.

The problem now is that you keep needing bigger and bigger processors, not to process data, to utilize the antivirus software and ad software that is incorporated into your systems. It has gotten way out of hand.

The big thing is I have somewhat kept up with the changes throughout the years, and started studying a lot over the last seven years. All for nearly free. I am not bound to only looking at what certain people running the show want me to see. If Einstein had those limitations, where would we be.

With math, I feel that they should spend more time making sure that kids understand completely the basic concepts and geometry of things. They are teaching what my daughters learned in in here high school classes in here senior and junior year in 01 and 02 in eighth grade now. What this shows me is that they are not appropriately getting kids to understand the basic maths comfortably, meaning repetition creates something that can never be forgotten and the basics need to be engrained into us. We need to be able to understand how to budget and comprehend what money and debt really mean. They skipped over teaching about counting money and word problems like, " If you have three dollars and you need lettuce and tomatoes and they cost two dollars and ninety cents, how much do you have left to buy a candy bar?" The correct answer is not ten cents, you cannot buy the candy bar for ten cents any more.

This is what reasoning is all about. It is about understanding what math can do for us, not just what the numbers show. I wish the people in our government today would go to a math class that taught the example I just showed. Half the people in this country are in debt, that is because they are manipulating the numbers to show that debt is normal. After all, the government is seventeen trillion bucks in debt, a person mortgage of a hundred grand is nothing to worry about.

Twisting of numbers is what enslaves us. We have to make the kids understand basic math, not making them get used to working with negative numbers and mortgage calculators for their whole lives. Confusing the figures is what makes some people rich and they are not teaching our young to watch out for that.



posted on Apr, 7 2015 @ 10:49 AM
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originally posted by: rickymouse
a reply to: Krazysh0t

I went high school from 69-73. My generation is what developed computers and the technology. Our generation hired the people to bring upon the computer changes that are occurring.

The problem now is that you keep needing bigger and bigger processors, not to process data, to utilize the antivirus software and ad software that is incorporated into your systems. It has gotten way out of hand.


Industry tip here from someone that works in IT, when you buy a pc, ask them to uninstall this crap or ask them to give you a clean boot disk to do it yourself. Even if you can't get compliance there, you can just go into the program features menu and uninstall all that shovelware.


The big thing is I have somewhat kept up with the changes throughout the years, and started studying a lot over the last seven years. All for nearly free. I am not bound to only looking at what certain people running the show want me to see. If Einstein had those limitations, where would we be.


This is good. Only the fool thinks his education ends with graduation.


With math, I feel that they should spend more time making sure that kids understand completely the basic concepts and geometry of things. They are teaching what my daughters learned in in here high school classes in here senior and junior year in 01 and 02 in eighth grade now. What this shows me is that they are not appropriately getting kids to understand the basic maths comfortably, meaning repetition creates something that can never be forgotten and the basics need to be engrained into us. We need to be able to understand how to budget and comprehend what money and debt really mean. They skipped over teaching about counting money and word problems like, " If you have three dollars and you need lettuce and tomatoes and they cost two dollars and ninety cents, how much do you have left to buy a candy bar?" The correct answer is not ten cents, you cannot buy the candy bar for ten cents any more.


Not to mention, they never teach sales tax calculations either. I remember when I was learning money math back in like second or third grade and I could never figure out why the calculations never worked out in real life like they taught in school. Then I learned about sales tax, but it wasn't from schools. What the heck? I understand that percentage multiplication is a little tough for an elementary student, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't revisit this in later school years. Which of course, never happened.


This is what reasoning is all about. It is about understanding what math can do for us, not just what the numbers show. I wish the people in our government today would go to a math class that taught the example I just showed. Half the people in this country are in debt, that is because they are manipulating the numbers to show that debt is normal. After all, the government is seventeen trillion bucks in debt, a person mortgage of a hundred grand is nothing to worry about.


I agree, financial education should be taught in schools. I'd say that teaching it around ninth grade would be the best since that is when many kids start getting part time jobs for the first time. This makes it easier for them to relate to expenditure examples. Sure younger kids may get an allowance, but what does $20 or whatever that allowance get you? Not much.


Twisting of numbers is what enslaves us. We have to make the kids understand basic math, not making them get used to working with negative numbers and mortgage calculators for their whole lives. Confusing the figures is what makes some people rich and they are not teaching our young to watch out for that.


No. They aren't... They also need to better teach how our government and the bill of rights works. The amount of people who yell about things the government can and can't do while not actually knowing the answer is outstanding. Especially on these forums. I can't count the number of times I've had to correct people who yell "FREEDOM OF SPEECH VIOLATION!" when talking about some speech restriction imposed by a website or some other privately owned entity.

With better government education, maybe people would learn how to recognize propaganda and rhetoric better. Heck, make another class called "History of Politics in the United States" with the sole intention of teaching how politicians have pandered to the public in the past and how it relates to what they are doing now.
edit on 7-4-2015 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 7 2015 @ 11:11 AM
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a reply to: Krazysh0t

yup...step 1 when buying a new PC: nuke and pave it first.

as it relates to math instruction...I think that there are concepts being left unpresented. For me, memorizing and repetition don't do much. I need to get the underlying concept.

At 43 years old I still remember the Slope Intercept Formula (y=mx+b). I have never had occasion to use it in real life. And would have no idea when to invoke such mathematics. Despite being considered the "math whiz" in my company. Because I learned it during Algebra II, from an instructor who wanted rote memorization as a support for bland lecture. It is now dead intellectual weight that i carry around from day to day, having absolutely no use for (and no idea how to use it even if so inclined). That is just 1 example of dozens of algebraic formulas I memorized as a kid that are all but useless.

LOL...i tried to help my kid with his algebra a few years ago, and broke out the "FOIL" method. I got the right answers, but he still failed the paper for not doing it the way he was taught (and couldn't remember).



posted on Apr, 7 2015 @ 11:26 AM
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a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

That is more a problem with the way the subject is taught versus the subject content though. Math DOES require much rote memorization, but if you don't understand the formulas and theories such things are based on, then it is hard to totally grasp the concept.

For instance, your example about slope-intercept form is great, but it is really just specific form of point-slope form where x1 = 0. (y-y1) = m(x-x1). Point slope form is a much easier way of writing a line. Also, m is just the derivative of the line (but you don't learn that until calculus).
edit on 7-4-2015 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 7 2015 @ 11:31 AM
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a reply to: Krazysh0t

I had to drop calculus in the second week of class. The instructor was giving a formula that included "radians". When i asked what a radian was....i got a blank stare and a bunch of stammering.

Knowing how my mind works...i just dropped the class and moved my schedule around.



posted on Apr, 7 2015 @ 11:33 AM
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a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Sounds like you skipped trigonometry before entering calculus.



posted on Apr, 7 2015 @ 11:36 AM
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lower the bar again - an easy way to turn dropouts into grads!

pat yourself on the back, and call the 11 o'clock news



posted on Apr, 7 2015 @ 12:09 PM
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a reply to: Krazysh0t

I went to a VERY small high school. Trig and Calc were taught concurrently because of the lack of a teacher (our teacher was a chemist that got tired of the petroleum world and went into teaching physics, trig, and calc). So half the students did trig the first semester/calc the second, the other half did it backwards. This allowed enough text books to go around. Despite it being a bad educational plan.



posted on Apr, 7 2015 @ 12:13 PM
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a reply to: Krazysh0t

The government funding a class on how to recognize propaganda???????? I doubt if that is on their agenda


For our economy to work, people need to put their money back into circulation. Now the system has gone overboard, they want you to borrow money to put it into circulation.

But that is a different agenda other than they may be conditioning our kids now on how to build credit.

I used to have a couple of disks full of programs to clean up a computer I got from an employee of mine. He owns a computer store selling and servicing computers and also has contracts taking care of some local governments programs where they can't afford to put on a full time person. I could get some more of those disks from him, disks that would work on newer versions of Windows. Mine got obsolete after XP. I was updating the software and still have the disks yet. I used the one to access a hard drive that got killed by viruses a couple of times, loading it from bios and correcting any problems it had along the way. The professional version of Win.2000 I bought had unlimited amounts of copies I could make from it and had a really good fixing utility incorporated into it that you could load with cont.alt.del.

I don't know if new versions have this that can automatically fix things. 8.1 kind of sucks.



posted on Apr, 7 2015 @ 12:42 PM
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originally posted by: rickymouse
a reply to: Krazysh0t

The government funding a class on how to recognize propaganda???????? I doubt if that is on their agenda


Hey it might be a pipe dream, but that shouldn't stop me from expressing it.


For our economy to work, people need to put their money back into circulation. Now the system has gone overboard, they want you to borrow money to put it into circulation.

But that is a different agenda other than they may be conditioning our kids now on how to build credit.


The current economic system is setup to rely on a large portion of the population not knowing how the economy truly works. With the way debt works, someone ALWAYS loses out and goes broke. Well such a system can be accepted easier if not everyone realizes this fact.


I used to have a couple of disks full of programs to clean up a computer I got from an employee of mine. He owns a computer store selling and servicing computers and also has contracts taking care of some local governments programs where they can't afford to put on a full time person. I could get some more of those disks from him, disks that would work on newer versions of Windows. Mine got obsolete after XP. I was updating the software and still have the disks yet. I used the one to access a hard drive that got killed by viruses a couple of times, loading it from bios and correcting any problems it had along the way. The professional version of Win.2000 I bought had unlimited amounts of copies I could make from it and had a really good fixing utility incorporated into it that you could load with cont.alt.del.

I don't know if new versions have this that can automatically fix things. 8.1 kind of sucks.


I mostly just use CCleaner to clean up computers these days. The basic version is free for download, allows you to cleanup your registry, delete old junk files, and manage your installed programs (as well as add ons for firefox and IE).

8.1 does suck. That's why Windows is trying to come out with Window 10.



posted on Apr, 7 2015 @ 12:49 PM
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a reply to: Krazysh0t

I've used ccleaner for many years. If I run it before I shut down the computer, I found that it helps to keep viruses from latching into the computer and keeps redir. programs from being permanent.



posted on Apr, 7 2015 @ 01:06 PM
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a reply to: charlyv

I didn't even know high schools give an 'Exit test'. I thought if students passed their classes, or enough of them, they graduated. Where did this 'Exit test' come from?



posted on Apr, 7 2015 @ 09:01 PM
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a reply to: charlyv

By Exit Test, are they referring to the final exams? If no, I never had an exit test.

Now, here's the funny thing in my case - I went to public schools, struggled all through my math and science classes (with exception of every programming language I learned or picked up), and found that when I got to college, there were people that could not solve for x, with the statement being 8 = 1X.

In a way - I almost wish that they would gear or steer the final tests in the direction that the person is looking for their career; I wouldn't be this far ahead in computers if I didn't receive 4 years worth of programming lessons. My final exams for these classes? Build a fully-functional game (Basic), Build a Lego robot that can accomplish a set list of tasks (c-programming; my robot got bonus points for having two of the core units talk to each other and work together), built a fully functional command prompt game or app (mine had sound and basic graphics, and I did GUI apps at home).

And for the record...I'm in the IT world, but I have never had to use calc or pre-calc. Algebra, Trig, and basic math is used on a regular basis though. Wish I had some classes on algorithms, because those would come in handy right now.

-fossilera



posted on Apr, 8 2015 @ 05:49 PM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

I wouldn't be opposed to teaching basic computing skills up to and including basic programming exercises. I'm tired as an IT person being asked how to use some obscure feature of excel or word. If you know basic programming concepts, you can write macros or formulas in excel. There really is no excuse for not knowing how to use a computer these days, and there are FAR too many people who still don't.


I've gone back and forth on this. One of the states, I forget which has recently touted including a CS education in high school. Unfortunately, to these people that usually means Word and Excel but if I'm being honest with myself I think that makes for better general education anyways even if they're displaying a woeful misunderstanding of what CS is.

I actually think that teaching basic programming concepts once you go in and start writing code is a bad idea however. Macros that just repeat your keystrokes are one thing but coding is something else entirely. 50% of the population isn't even mentally capable of understanding how to code (weird thing with how our brains work) so I think that's a poor concept to teach.


originally posted by: rickymouse
My daughter works with computers all day long, imputing data for a contractor at hospitals around the country. She does not need much math skills for that. Most people who use computers do not use math much. The basic maths are very important, as is some geometry but much of what I have been seeing is never going to be used and it does not build comprehension like it did when we were in these classes, it is not the same now as it was even ten years ago.


I disagree. This is going to argue against what I said above about the CS education but c'est la vie, just another lesson on absolutes. About a year and a half ago I was doing some temp work for the local career center (basically I was there to do grunt work they never had the time for), essentially it was an alternative high school that people could instead choose to go to and get vocational training specializing in a job skill rather than the general HS education.

I was working in their office, and the nursing program had several CD's with tests on them. They were wanting someone to go through these tests and type out tests so that they could be emailed to students, or better yet printed off and given without using the computer. There were 15 CD's and each one involved 3 100 question tests. So there were 4500 questions I was expected to copy. They were expecting this task to take me at least two weeks by going through the tests, writing the questions/answers down, and then looking up the answers. It took me 30 minutes to figure out the file structure of the programs, extract the data to text files, sort it, find the answer key, match the answer key to the questions, and then write a program that would take the answer file and question file, and create a properly formatted test. Then it took me another 15 minutes to modify the program to create 5 versions of each test with randomized ordering of questions... CS education at work.

Oddly enough, this job despite being done much faster than requested, and going a step further than requested got me fired. Because they were expecting that to be a major project and once I was done they had nothing else for me to do. Prior to this they asked me to input a bunch of data, that was again expected to take a long time to enter into their database (they were using Access). I got it done in 1/10 the expected time, partially because I'm a fast typer and partially because rather than input directly to the database like they were doing I built myself an input form and set some tabs up to quickly move between fields and create new records so that I could type quickly without jumping all over the place.

The point being, you don't always need to use high level math with computers but there are a lot of tasks that can be done much more efficiently with a small amount of math and programming knowledge.

In other cases you would be surprised, for example I have to use a lot of trigonometry. Lets say I'm 3d modeling an object and I need to figure out the size of a piece I need to create, and I'm not building off of a blueprint. Often times I will have to calculate sizes and angles. Then I will have to look at things like like refraction and how individual photons bounce around an object in order to create something that is computationally inexpensive to draw but still dynamic.



originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: Krazysh0t

At 43 years old I still remember the Slope Intercept Formula (y=mx+b). I have never had occasion to use it in real life. And would have no idea when to invoke such mathematics. Despite being considered the "math whiz" in my company. Because I learned it during Algebra II, from an instructor who wanted rote memorization as a support for bland lecture. It is now dead intellectual weight that i carry around from day to day, having absolutely no use for (and no idea how to use it even if so inclined). That is just 1 example of dozens of algebraic formulas I memorized as a kid that are all but useless.

LOL...i tried to help my kid with his algebra a few years ago, and broke out the "FOIL" method. I got the right answers, but he still failed the paper for not doing it the way he was taught (and couldn't remember).


One of the big uses of the slope intercept formula is to graph the rate of change of a something. For example lets say you're looking at a sales graph that's showing your sales of a product at discrete time intervals. From every point to every other point is an application of creating a line segment following a particular slope. From this you could take your final datapoint and extrapolate when your sales will hit a particular point such as 100 units/day or 0 units/day by calculating when equals 0 or 100.

FOIL believe it or not I actually use every day. A lot of what I have to program relies on efficiency. I have to do a lot of graphics programming and you have time limitations on how fast the computer can calculate a scene. If you're running at 50 fps for example you have 0.02 seconds to calculate every pixel so efficiency is important. Some of the stuff I do can be broken down into FOIL components and calculated 2-3 times faster than by other methods. So I have to convert formulas and data to their FOIL pieces in order to help the computer out.



posted on Apr, 8 2015 @ 05:55 PM
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originally posted by: fossilera
In a way - I almost wish that they would gear or steer the final tests in the direction that the person is looking for their career; I wouldn't be this far ahead in computers if I didn't receive 4 years worth of programming lessons. My final exams for these classes? Build a fully-functional game (Basic), Build a Lego robot that can accomplish a set list of tasks (c-programming; my robot got bonus points for having two of the core units talk to each other and work together), built a fully functional command prompt game or app (mine had sound and basic graphics, and I did GUI apps at home).


I too have had to make a lot of games. I'm actually in a game engineering program these days so that's to be expected but in the previous programs I completed such as computer programming, the game test was pretty popular in any language.

In Javascript I built maze you had to navigate a guy through, in Java I built Yahtzee, in Python I built a small Legend of Zelda-esque game, in C# I built Blackjack, in ActionScript I built a Mario type game, in one of them I also made a text based MUD. I always found those types of final projects to be great ways to apply all the little things learned during the semester.



posted on Apr, 8 2015 @ 05:57 PM
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originally posted by: Aleister
a reply to: charlyv

I didn't even know high schools give an 'Exit test'. I thought if students passed their classes, or enough of them, they graduated. Where did this 'Exit test' come from?



Not all of them do, about half of the states give an exit test that is above and beyond the final grades you get in classes. The test is "supposed" to be an assessment of how well you grasped the curriculum of what a high school senior should understand overall in Math, Science, History/Social Studies and English.

The arbitrary part here is that individual states are allowed to interpret what the federal DOE specifies as guidelines, and, subsequently decide to administer, or not administer these tests, which is to me anyway, a conflict of interest that allows political and financial influences to undermine what is supposed to be a bellwether that says the student received a proper education.

Further, many colleges and universities ask for the results of these tests, and determine your eligibility to attend them, based upon the scores.

For these reasons alone, there must be a standard for all states to author these exams in a non-biased manner, even if it exposes lack thereof in the teaching abilities in the respective schools.



posted on Apr, 8 2015 @ 05:58 PM
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I see a pattern..

1) First class graduate honours is now 70% lowered from 75%
2) Common core math means drawing legs of cows to count
3) Testing is now being removed

When will the schools no longer teach and just become meetings about "opinions" on math?

ok class today we shall discuss 2+2, what do you think it is? remember to be politically correct now.

At this rate, every 10-15 years I really do see a dumbing down of education. I see it with my own eyes. I shall be the smartest person on Earth before I die, all because those around me became dumber.


edit on 8-4-2015 by bullcat because: (no reason given)




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