Should gay people fight for the right for anti-gay businesses to take their money or just boycott?

originally posted by: nenothtu
Correct - it only gives them that freedom in matters of exercising their religion. "Anything they want" could cover a whole lot of territory not involving religion.

A cake baking Business isn't Religious in nature so it has no grounds to exercise a religion. When bakers are clergy and bakeries are churches let me know.

What is the problem with that? You do know it's coming, once the floodgates have opened, right? I have no problem with it at all - their lives are not mine to run. After all, I'm all for gay marriage on legal grounds, why would I not be for multiple marriages on religious grounds?

Personally I don't have a problem with it. But they have laws against it so it's not up to how I feel personally.

Legal Beheadings for Islam.

No - beheadings fall under Shari'a, which is law and culture, not religion. Freedom to exercise one's religion does not include legal freedoms of a non-religious nature. We are still under US law, not shari'a law. If we were under shari'a law, this discussion would not be happening at all.

Ya, well US Law says businesses must treat everyone the same but somehow that's when things become religious.

Public stoning for Christians

Can you give me an example of Christians conducting a stoning, please?

The Bible.

Show me where Christians aren't supposed to bake cakes for Gay People.

a reply to: LewsTherinThelamon

There are only fascists and anarchists.

All law is, by it's nature, authoritarian.

Oh my! What a myopic worldview you have. We are either fascists or anarchists!

a reply to: mOjOm

Why is it empty??? Because it ruins your argument???

My business is simply an extension of myself.

Ya, so businesses are made up of people, so what??? So are Governments, Teams and Universities and yet they all must still abide by the rules set for each one of those establishments. Same goes for Businesses.

Obviously it's not as plain and simple as you want it to be.

It really is, though. Discrimination isn't a crime because it doesn't infringe on someone's rights. Using the law to create crime where there is none makes you an authoritarian. Like Jim Crowe and his ilk.

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: LewsTherinThelamon

There are only fascists and anarchists.

All law is, by it's nature, authoritarian.

Oh my! What a myopic worldview you have. We are either fascists or anarchists!

Myopic is a little harsh.

a reply to: Annee

Unless maybe you're selling oranges off your private land or in the parking lot of your church.

And this is exactly how all business should be handled.

a reply to: LewsTherinThelamon

Myopic is a little harsh.

No it's not. That's how you view the world.

I told you not to make yourself look silly. You do not know what fascism means.

Let me ask you questions:

Do I want a dictator?

Do I want a totalitarian government?

Do I want what it is like in the 1984 novel and North Korea?

originally posted by: LewsTherinThelamon

My business is simply an extension of myself.

That extension has to still follow the laws put in place to regulate "extensions" then.

It really is, though. Discrimination isn't a crime because it doesn't infringe on someone's rights. Using the law to create crime where there is none makes you an authoritarian. Like Jim Crowe and his ilk.

When your business serves everyone else but me simply because I am who I am then it is your business that has infringed upon my right to be treated equally when engaged in business. It is your business that has infringed upon my freedom of choice and excludes me from the same choices that everyone else has.

originally posted by: LewsTherinThelamon
a reply to: Annee

Unless maybe you're selling oranges off your private land or in the parking lot of your church.

And this is exactly how all business should be handled.

Well fine, have a business on your private property.

But, most businesses are in a commercial area. In a rented "brick and mortar". Using public access.

Private does not apply.

originally posted by: nenothtu

What is the problem with that? You do know it's coming, once the floodgates have opened, right? I have no problem with it at all - their lives are not mine to run. After all, I'm all for gay marriage on legal grounds, why would I not be for multiple marriages on religious grounds?

Under religious freedom, Mormon's should never have had polygamy taken away from them in the first place.

Just sayin'

I think the real lesson to be learned here then is:

If you want to start a business that does business with everyone the same, start a business.

If you want to start a business that does business with only people who you like and agree with, start a church.

I can't believe this is 15 pages long, let people do want they want to, unless they hurt you or others...why is this so hard to understand?...you people on the right need to get a grip.....how has this impacted you personally?...what big moral decision have you had to make because of this?....what happened to personal liberty as long as you don't hurt anyone else?....Jesus, I'm a 62 year old white guy, let it go for Christ's sake, this is simply no big deal.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: nenothtu

Exactly.

Secular government.

Discrimination occurs in private all the time.

This isn't about private.

Really? It's about whether government will bake a cake for a gay wedding then? I guess I just fell into the wrong conversation then. In this case, I don't think government should bake cakes for gay weddings. Not because of a religious conviction, because government is barred from dabbling in religion, but rather on a basis of equality - they wouldn't bake a cake for my hetero wedding.

Government is supposed to not be allowed to discriminate - but that is exactly what people appear to want now - for the government to discriminate against the religious types.

No. A business is secular. All customers must be allowed the same services offered.

Who told you that? Wouldn't it be up to the owner how a business is run? I see them all the time - and all across the nation - that are decidedly religious. If that is now illegal, there is going to be a lot of change coming, and a large niche is about to open for sign painters and whatnot to paint the religion out of the ads.

No ma'am - it specifies that GOVERNMENT must remain secular, and refrain from dabbling in religious matters, but there is no law anywhere that says business must be secular. As a matter of fact, it would be illegal for the government to dictate that - it says in the First Amendment they aren't allowed to: "shall make NO LAW concerning establishment of religion". That's pretty specific.

Who would print their bibles and korans and torahs and stuff then?

last time I checked, there was a constitutional guarantee of religious freedom, . . .

Yes, you have the right to believe whatever you want.

No. I've always had that right, and so has everyone else. The constitution is not about the populace, it is about the government, and how the government is to operate - it limits what government is allowed to do in certain matters. It is a sort of a charter for government. In this case it prohibits government from interfering in matters of religion. It does not afford me the right to believe what I want - it specifically prohibits government from interfering with that right, which already existed.

but no guarantee of sexual orientation freedom specified.

Currently depends on state. Federal probably soon.

To be honest, I'm not up to speed on all 50 state constitutions, so which ones specify that guarantee? it's implied in all of them, but I've never heard of it being constitutionally specified.

There's also the 14th amendment.

How would you possibly apply the 14th Amendment? What is there in it that you think would apply to this situation?

. . . discriminate against those religious folk.

No one is discriminating against a belief - - any belief.

Nor did I say they were. I said they were discriminating against religious folk. people. Only people can be discriminated against.

Using that belief to discriminate is the issue.

It does appear to be. I just can't figure out why it's an issue.

a reply to: Deaf Alien

Do I want a dictator?

Yes, you want to use violence to force people to do what you want.

You are the dictator.

Do I want a totalitarian government?

Yes, you support government involvement in otherwise free transactions.

Do I want what it is like in the 1984 novel and North Korea?

Yes, if left to people like you, that is what we would have.

...liberals are supposed to be in favor of any voluntary actions performed, as the famous cliché goes, by “two consenting adults.” Yet it is peculiar that while liberals are in favor of any sexual activity engaged in by two consenting adults, when these consenting adults engage in trade or exchange, the liberals step in to harass, cripple, restrict, or prohibit that trade. And yet both the consenting sexual activity and the trade are similar expressions of liberty in action. --Murray Rothbard

originally posted by: jimmyx
. . . let people do want they want to, unless they hurt you or others...

Discrimination doesn't hurt?

a reply to: mOjOm

If you want to start a business that does business with only people who you like and agree with, start a church.

I'm going to start a business and only serve Libertarians. No Republicans or Democrats.

originally posted by: nenothtu

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: nenothtu

Exactly.

Secular government.

Discrimination occurs in private all the time.

This isn't about private.

Really? It's about whether government will bake a cake for a gay wedding then?

No, its not.

Its treating every customer the same.

Wedding - - - not gay Wedding.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: jimmyx
. . . let people do want they want to, unless they hurt you or others...

Discrimination doesn't hurt?

It doesn't infringe on any rights, it may hurt someone's feelings, but hurting someone's feelings is not criminal behavior.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: nenothtu

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: nenothtu

Exactly.

Secular government.

Discrimination occurs in private all the time.

This isn't about private.

Really? It's about whether government will bake a cake for a gay wedding then?

No, its not.

Its treating every customer the same.

You said public, public means government.

originally posted by: LewsTherinThelamon

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: jimmyx
. . . let people do want they want to, unless they hurt you or others...

Discrimination doesn't hurt?

It doesn't infringe on any rights, it may hurt someone's feelings, but hurting someone's feelings is not criminal behavior.

Discrimination doesn't infringe on anyone's rights.

LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL

originally posted by: LewsTherinThelamon

I'm going to start a business and only serve Libertarians. No Republicans or Democrats.

That sounds wonderful. I'm sure you'll go far. Make sure you make that clear when you advertise too.