Greece draws up drachma plans, prepares to miss IMF payment

a reply to: Macdon

There are tons of stories like this one on Greek tax avoidance.

www.economist.com...

If you've known Greeks then you would know they avoid taxes better than anyone. Sometimes the story is what the MSM pumps out. Sometimes the truth fits their agenda.

a reply to: yeahsurexxx

Lol

Exactly

The only way forward is to dump the euro and print their own currency

a reply to: dollukka

Yeah except your precious Goldman Sachs advised prior Greek government how to cook the books

US banking at its finest

originally posted by: noeltrotsky
a reply to: Macdon

There are tons of stories like this one on Greek tax avoidance.

www.economist.com...

If you've known Greeks then you would know they avoid taxes better than anyone. Sometimes the story is what the MSM pumps out. Sometimes the truth fits their agenda.

Are you having a laugh or what? The Economist is MSM = mainstream media. I believe almost nothing they say. That was the gist of my earlier post, you dig?

I live in Australia and I do know Greeks and they are no different to other Aussies - we all hate being overly taxed.

I have posted the stats before and that's enough for me. They pay more tax as a percentage of GDP than most other countries, probably an average actually.

Why is the tax evasion of the Greek people an issue anyway? Did they make backroom deals with bankers to incur odious debt? Nah, they're just the stooges who are expected to pay it back, they and the European, mainly German taxpayers. You should chase down multinational corporations who avoid billions of dollars worth of tax openly. Does The Economist write about that? Even a solitary article?

In 2010 Greece should have been given debt relief not bailouts with conditions that are unsustainable.

Leaked minutes from an IMF meeting in 2010 shows that Greece were treated very badly with much too strong austerity measures and the purpose was to save the banks notably German and French. In International Law the bailouts should rightly be treated as an odious debt.

People should really educate before they criticize. Greece have every right to complain about this.

For decades the IMF has used the same structural reforms to ensure third world nations stay as third world nations.

They have now gone to the next level, turning first world nations into third world nations.

The trial run in Greece has exceeded expectations. International finance - jam today and penury tomorrow.

originally posted by: WineAndCheese9
a reply to: dollukka

Yeah except your precious Goldman Sachs advised prior Greek government how to cook the books

US banking at its finest

So did you even read what i have been writing here.. Or did you have something stuck between your teeth due another thread which was closed.
I bet you didn´t read or you haven´t understood. My country has paid more than it affords because EU Greece financial politics. Now our elders don´t get decent care cos money has been put to support Greece ( which will never pay back ). Our elders who live at their homes ( many of them are not capable for that kind of living but because its cheaper than rest homes . save money ) are on meal-on-wheels, they used to get meal twice a day from that service now they get one ( they say that elders do not need as much food and they don´t eat much, but the fact is that elderly people actually need more nutritious meals as their metabolism has slowed down )
Here is what a meal-on-wheels looks today in our depression

four slices of cucumber, soup with little meat and little vegetables, dessert kissel
This meal cost 7.4 euros for a day / one meal
That meal is not worth of 2 euros.

I am gladly letting Greece out of EU and try their luck with Putin which they have already said being an option... and for your knowledge i am anti-EU.

originally posted by: stormcell


Greece's problem is that a few corrupt officials were bribed to take on international debt that the country could never afford to pay back. The lenders want their money, the crooks have shipped the money offshore and fled the country, and the little people are left to pay the tab. They were never consulted over these financial deals, so from their viewpoint, why should they be punished?

I agree with this as well.
Just like in the US, it is the policy makers that are at fault while trying to shaft those that have no say in the process.
The top elite want everyone else to pay for it all while they reap the rewards when times are good.

And you can bet anywhere there is money to be found, Goldman Sachs is involved with their octopus tentacles.

www.spiegel.de...

Greek Debt Crisis: How Goldman Sachs Helped Greece to Mask its True Debt

By Beat Balzli

Goldman Sachs helped the Greek government to mask the true extent of its deficit with the help of a derivatives deal that legally circumvented the EU Maastricht deficit rules. At some point the so-called cross currency swaps will mature, and swell the country's already bloated deficit.

The trading costs on the swap rose because the deal had a notional value of more than 15 billion euros, more than the amount of the loan itself, said a former Greek official with knowledge of the transaction who asked not to be identified because the pricing was private. The size and complexity of the deal meant that Goldman Sachs charged proportionately higher trading fees than for deals of a more standard size and structure, he said

Goldman Sachs helps no-one. They are in it for themselves and added onto the debt. They want a cut of the carcass.

originally posted by: Macdon
I live in Australia and I do know Greeks and they are no different to other Aussies - we all hate being overly taxed.

The difference is Greeks DON'T pay it and Aussie's are forced to pay it. If you had read the article I posted you would have seen which Greeks are avoiding taxes.

I have posted the stats before and that's enough for me. They pay more tax as a percentage of GDP than most other countries, probably an average actually.

You should look at some better stats. Most Euro countries pay higher tax rates than Greeks.
en.wikipedia.org...
Those other Euro citizens are forced to pay their taxes, unlike many Greeks who avoid it.

Why is the tax evasion of the Greek people an issue anyway?

Your Funny! The country goes Bankrupt and you wonder why people not paying taxes is an issue! Somehow I think you're a little Greek inside.

You should chase down multinational corporations who avoid billions of dollars worth of tax openly. Does The Economist write about that? Even a solitary article?

They sure do...
www.economist.com/news/united-states/21629457-voters-kansas-will-pass-judgment-bold-experiment-tax-cutting-brownbackonomics
but you already said you don't believe anything in MSM so don't bother reading it, just move on to the next Alex Jones article.

In 2010 Greece should have been given debt relief not bailouts with conditions that are unsustainable.

I guess you support giving Cocaine addicts more Cocaine for free. Good plan! You open your wallet and give your money to the Greeks first. I'll wait and see how that goes for you and them.

People should really educate before they criticize. Greece have every right to complain about this.

Greece does have a right to complain. If they didn't want to borrow money from the IMF they should have not borrowed it. Complaining now after realizing the IMF will demand changes in how you run your country is a bit late. The IMF was pretty clear on the changes they would require before Greece took the money.

For decades the IMF has used the same structural reforms to ensure third world nations stay as third world nations.

Generalize much? That's really useful.

Blind rage at international organizations isn't really helpful. The IMF has made many mistakes no doubt, but the Greeks should look at their countries issues before they start slamming others who have lent them money when nobody else would.

originally posted by: noeltrotsky
I live in Australia and I do know Greeks and they are no different to other Aussies - we all hate being overly taxed.

The difference is Greeks DON'T pay it and Aussie's are forced to pay it. If you had read the article I posted you would have seen which Greeks are avoiding taxes.

I have posted the stats before and that's enough for me. They pay more tax as a percentage of GDP than most other countries, probably an average actually.

You should look at some better stats. Most Euro countries pay higher tax rates than Greeks.
en.wikipedia.org...
Those other Euro citizens are forced to pay their taxes, unlike many Greeks who avoid it.

Why is the tax evasion of the Greek people an issue anyway?

Your Funny! The country goes Bankrupt and you wonder why people not paying taxes is an issue! Somehow I think you're a little Greek inside.

You should chase down multinational corporations who avoid billions of dollars worth of tax openly. Does The Economist write about that? Even a solitary article?

They sure do...
www.economist.com/news/united-states/21629457-voters-kansas-will-pass-judgment-bold-experiment-tax-cutting-brownbackonomics
but you already said you don't believe anything in MSM so don't bother reading it, just move on to the next Alex Jones article.

In 2010 Greece should have been given debt relief not bailouts with conditions that are unsustainable.

I guess you support giving Cocaine addicts more Cocaine for free. Good plan! You open your wallet and give your money to the Greeks first. I'll wait and see how that goes for you and them.

People should really educate before they criticize. Greece have every right to complain about this.

Greece does have a right to complain. If they didn't want to borrow money from the IMF they should have not borrowed it. Complaining now after realizing the IMF will demand changes in how you run your country is a bit late. The IMF was pretty clear on the changes they would require before Greece took the money.

For decades the IMF has used the same structural reforms to ensure third world nations stay as third world nations.

Generalize much? That's really useful.

Blind rage at international organizations isn't really helpful. The IMF has made many mistakes no doubt, but the Greeks should look at their countries issues before they start slamming others who have lent them money when nobody else would.


Macdon replies.

Are you for real or what? Greeks pay PAYE tax like Aussies, other than that it's a free for all for small businesses and the rich. According to *your* figures (wikipedia - LOL!!!) Greeks pay more tax as a percentage of GDP than Australians, my figures say they do not. Your assertion that citizens of other countries are conscientious taxpayers and Greeks are not is slanderous and wreaks of mainstream media propaganda. As if that's going to get the banksters their usurious loans back.

The Banksters will be going insane if they can't get away with their massive gamble, which was to use loans as a form of hostile takeover to acquire Greece's assets. They very deliberately pressure countries into huge debt, with the sole focus upon forcing the sale of government assets. In Australia, this has caused power prices (electricity) to surge to the highest in the world. On the list of international prices paid for domestic power, per-state, Australia had 4 of its states in the top 6 positions for prices paid in the world! Privitisation is always bad for the consumer, because they cannot vote out the 'management' like they can with government-owned utilities, who keep prices low to retain votes at the ballot box.

As for tax, I have a big issue with it. It's a penalty imposed by conquerors to the conquered. In our case - the banksters and govt. lackeys to the people. People in the west don't need to pay so much tax to the crooks and gangsters who are on a permanent gravy train.

Your link doesn't talk about the tax evasion of multinational corporations. Is English your first language or are you a robot? That last question was meant as a test.

I am a little Greek inside, for sure. I'm an Aussie of Irish-English-Scottish descent and the Greeks saved my grandfather's life whilst he was fighting there with the British Empire Forces in WWII.

I don't like what's happening to Greece, Ireland, the rest of the indebted nations in Europe and of course Australia - we should be the greatest country on earth but we have the most imbecilic govt. on earth and no, I'm not going to pay the new bank deposit tax. That's another tax pulled out of the crook's arses. Tell that to The Economist and the IMF.

Here's today's Aussie news. Yeah, they pay tax, for sure. At my rate of tax, this bloke should pay $1.5 billion worth of tax.
www.theage.com.au...

Judging by the guys name above, I'm going to guess he is from FYROM, or his family is.
Funny how some posts get removed others get warned, but a post with racist undertones like the one above(and probably the rest of his in this thread and others) are not.


Anyhow, the issues with Greece are many. Some are of their own making, some are not.
The issues which are affecting them most now are a mix of both. But the issues that are not of their own making, namely the conditions and austerity imposed on the Greek government by the EU/IMF, are what is making things much worse for Greece today. The bailouts, which over 80% of the money has actually gone to German banks anyway and not Greece although Greece was lumped with the repayments for as well(nice stitch up by Greece's "allies"), are what has made things even worse then they ever needed to be.
There's no point blaming the EU or IMF for that though, because it's the corrupt Greek politicians whom accepted these conditions and extra debt burden that they've seen no benefit from.

However today, and in theme with this thread, SYRIZA is behaving the way they are on purpose. It's all part of their plan to take Greece out of the EU and Euro, and eventually NATO. Putin's money is behind the rise of SYRIZA.
SYRIZA went from an obscure minor party with a tiny fraction of votes, to the biggest party. They've got radio stations and other media all over the country. Where did they get the money? From Russia.

I was scepitcal on it ages ago, I may have even posted about it on ATS, about it being the Russians. I wasn't sure and was thinking the Americans could be behind it for their own agenda. But with Putin anouncement of more ICBM's coinciding with Tsipras(PM of Greece) meeting with him in Russia...I think it's fairly obvious now.

They are being beligerent to the EU/Eurozone/IMF, even more so lately. Tsipras called the IMF criminals. Criminals they may be, but a mature co-operative decorum is required with them to sort this mess out.
He, nor his party do not seem to be interested in resolving this with a new plan.
They seem to be intent on forcing Europe to kick Greece out of the EU/Eurozone. At that stage Greece's continued membership in NATO will be in question, not because the alliance wont want them, but because of what SYRIZA will do next.

Hopefully however before SYRIZA can endanger Greece's membership in the alliance, if Greece has left the EU+Euro, the Greek armed forces step in and literally clean house from top to bottom.
Every last communist, socialist, anarchist, and deviant scum who've corrupted the country and brought it to it's knees, need to be grabbed by the military and thrown in jail for life, and every illegal immigrant needs to be processed properly and if deemed to not be a legitimate refugee then sent packing back to where they came from.

I do not think the military will make a move before Greece exits the EU & Euro.
And if Greece exits the currency union, it's continued presence in the political union the EU will be in serious jeopardy.


While many of you will be shaking your heads, these are all necessary things that NEED to happen in Greece, for Greece to transition out of the socialist/communist death trap it's been stuck in since the fall of the Junta in the late 1970's.



And for the racist above. The majority of Greeks are honest hard working people. They are however stuck in a corrupt, broken system, that the elites who are in control are fighting

Judging by the guys name above, I'm going to guess he is from FYROM, or his family is.
Funny how some posts get removed others get warned, but a post with racist undertones like the one above(and probably the rest of his in this thread and others) are not.


Anyhow, the issues with Greece are many. Some are of their own making, some are not.
The issues which are affecting them most now are a mix of both. But the issues that are not of their own making, namely the conditions and austerity imposed on the Greek government by the EU/IMF, are what is making things much worse for Greece today. The bailouts, which over 80% of the money has actually gone to German banks anyway and not Greece although Greece was lumped with the repayments for as well(nice stitch up by Greece's "allies"), are what has made things even worse then they ever needed to be.
There's no point blaming the EU or IMF for that though, because it's the corrupt Greek politicians whom accepted these conditions and extra debt burden that they've seen no benefit from.

However today, and in theme with this thread, SYRIZA is behaving the way they are on purpose. It's all part of their plan to take Greece out of the EU and Euro, and eventually NATO. Putin's money is behind the rise of SYRIZA.
SYRIZA went from an obscure minor party with a tiny fraction of votes, to the biggest party. They've got radio stations and other media all over the country. Where did they get the money? From Russia.

I was scepitcal on it ages ago, I may have even posted about it on ATS, about it being the Russians. I wasn't sure and was thinking the Americans could be behind it for their own agenda. But with Putin anouncement of more ICBM's coinciding with Tsipras(PM of Greece) meeting with him in Russia...I think it's fairly obvious now.

They are being beligerent to the EU/Eurozone/IMF, even more so lately. Tsipras called the IMF criminals. Criminals they may be, but a mature co-operative decorum is required with them to sort this mess out.
He, nor his party do not seem to be interested in resolving this with a new plan.
They seem to be intent on forcing Europe to kick Greece out of the EU/Eurozone. At that stage Greece's continued membership in NATO will be in question, not because the alliance wont want them, but because of what SYRIZA will do next.

Hopefully however before SYRIZA can endanger Greece's membership in the alliance, if Greece has left the EU+Euro, the Greek armed forces step in and literally clean house from top to bottom.
Every last communist, socialist, anarchist, and deviant scum who've corrupted the country and brought it to it's knees, need to be grabbed by the military and thrown in jail for life, and every illegal immigrant needs to be processed properly and if deemed to not be a legitimate refugee then sent packing back to where they came from.

I do not think the military will make a move before Greece exits the EU & Euro.
And if Greece exits the currency union, it's continued presence in the political union the EU will be in serious jeopardy.


While many of you will be shaking your heads, these are all necessary things that NEED to happen in Greece, for Greece to transition out of the socialist/communist death trap it's been stuck in since the fall of the Junta in the late 1970's.



And for the racist above. The majority of Greeks are honest hard working people. They are however stuck in a corrupt, broken system, that the elites who are in control are fighting to keep as the status quo because anything else does not benefit them.
The biggest sum of tax owed(not paid) is from those same people and their billionaire friends.

Rejoice and celebrate at Greece's woes all you like. However Greece still remains a far wealthier and better off country then FYROM, even if Greece exits from the Euro it will be better off then FYROM.

And you should be very worried if Greece becomes unstable, because the more unstable it becomes the more chance that the military will step in. And if the military steps in, even if they don't seize power but only step in to remove the corrupt douches who've ruined the country, what will replace them will be patriots who wont take any crap from any neighbouring country, least of all from FYROM.
Those oppressed Greeks in southern FYROM centered around Monastiri(Bitola) may soon enough.

a reply to: mortex

I was seriously considering a holiday to Athens later this summer but have been strongly advised against it, given your post I can see that it may be wise of me to take that advice.

However, from what I have been led to understand if Greece default on the payment then the IMF, and possibly the EU, will be forced to "crush" Greece in order to prevent other countries, particularly Spain, from getting any similar ideas. I presume that the crushing will be of an economic variety.

The advice to avoid travelling to Greece was due to the risk of strikes and other disruptions to local services as a result of civil actions. I had planned on travelling to Greece from Istanbul by train, such disruptions could have cost me a fortune that my budget wouldn't have stretched to, otherwise, until reading your post, I would have risked it.

That said, what interest do the Russians have in Greece? I did notice, last year in Crete, that a large proportion of the tourists were from Russia, as well as a vast amount of Russian owned furrier businesses dotted around the resorts. It seemed to me that the Russians were spending liberally so I can understand why their custom is being sought and consequently the transportation and communication links between the countries has smoothed. Greece is by no means unique in the Med, Europe or any other nation for having grease-able palms, I don't buy the "communism" drivel, the Russians are bringing much needed capital into Greece, at what cost certainly, butsocialism cannot the danger, that to me is a totally ridiculous assertion.

originally posted by: Anaana
a reply to: mortex

I was seriously considering a holiday to Athens later this summer but have been strongly advised against it, given your post I can see that it may be wise of me to take that advice.

However, from what I have been led to understand if Greece default on the payment then the IMF, and possibly the EU, will be forced to "crush" Greece in order to prevent other countries, particularly Spain, from getting any similar ideas. I presume that the crushing will be of an economic variety.

The advice to avoid travelling to Greece was due to the risk of strikes and other disruptions to local services as a result of civil actions. I had planned on travelling to Greece from Istanbul by train, such disruptions could have cost me a fortune that my budget wouldn't have stretched to, otherwise, until reading your post, I would have risked it.

That said, what interest do the Russians have in Greece? I did notice, last year in Crete, that a large proportion of the tourists were from Russia, as well as a vast amount of Russian owned furrier businesses dotted around the resorts. It seemed to me that the Russians were spending liberally so I can understand why their custom is being sought and consequently the transportation and communication links between the countries has smoothed. Greece is by no means unique in the Med, Europe or any other nation for having grease-able palms, I don't buy the "communism" drivel, the Russians are bringing much needed capital into Greece, at what cost certainly, butsocialism cannot the danger, that to me is a totally ridiculous assertion.

Nah I'd still go on a holiday there now if I could get time off.

You'll be more then safe there. I wouldn't worry about riots or protests. Most Greeks don't riot and destroy property, that's a minority anarchist faction of society whom just happen to have very wealthy parents..ironic.

If you do decide to go, which if I was you I wouldn't give up the chance because Greece is a beautiful country and you'll have an amazing time there, I would definitely take hard currency..as much as is legally possible according to your country's and the EU's tax/import rules. When you arrive in Athens, hit up an ATM as soon as you get out of customs and into the main terminal.
I'd do that just as a precaution in case things turn sour quickly and there's a run on the banks. The ECB may not provide extra funds to the banks.

I was in Greece around this time last year. It was awesome.
I used the ferrys between islands and the inter-city train. I even caught the train back to the airport from Corinth. And used the inter-city buses as well. It was fine, the threat of strikes is over blown these days.
You can also catch a taxi.
There was something about the taxis, where they rip you off if you are a foreigner and aren't paying attention. Google it because I can't remember. It happened to me once when I was drunk with some friends, it was only a short trip that cost 8 euros but should have cost 4 euros. I realized as he was about to drive off and had a word to him and told him he's lucky it's only a small amount otherwise he'd be in the water with his taxi. My background is Greek so I can speak Greek..which he didn't like lol.
But other then that you should be fine.

If you want to avoid potential strike action by public transport workers, as unlikely as it is at the moment, you could hire a car. Most of the major international car hire companies are present in Greece as well.

And if you don't go, then save your pennies and come to Australia in December/January for the new year..it's just as beautiful and you'll also have an amazing time here.


The Russians have geopolitical interests in Greece mainly. But there are also cultural and historical links between the two countries. Some good some not so good.
Geopolitical interest wise, if they win over Greece to their side, then it's a major, major victory for the Russian-Chinese bloc and a major blow to the American-EU bloc.
If Greece exits the Euro it will exit the EU too. It will then have to turn to Russia and China for assistance. That will force Greece to leave NATO, or for NATO to expel Greece..for obvious reasons.
What will happen then will be the removal of NATO forces from Greece, which will quickly be replaced by Russian forces.

That will be a nightmare scenario for the Americans because the Russian's will, on top of having secured their presence in the Black Sea with the annexaction of Crimea, will have not only secured but dramatically expanded their presence in the Mediterranean Sea.

The Americans are working behind the scenes to prevent that from happening. That's one of the reasons I believe why there are always last minute deals for Greece. If it was up to the Germans, Greece would have been kicked out of the EU and Euro a while ago, and probably never would have been allowed to join.
It is in America's geopolitical strategic interests, because it keeps Russia out and contained.

A Russian businessman, whose actually of Greek descent(he comes from the Black Sea region that's now part of Turkey, that's otherwise known as Pontus for Greeks..his family left there and went to Russia seeking refuge from the genocide). The guy is very wealthy and has close links to Putin..anyway..this businessman has bought one of the soccer clubs in the Greek Superleague, with the intention of investing in Greece and bringing more Russian business people to invest in Greece. I don't know how that's all panning out for them, but he recently paid off that clubs debts to the Greek government making that club, PAOK, the first club in Greece to be debt free.

The Russian's also want to build pipelines through Greece to transport their gas and oil. Something that the Americans heavily oppose. Before the crisis hit, the Greek government of Karamanlis was in talks with the Russians to build a pipeline through Bulgaria from the Black Sea to the Aegean Sea. The Americans got the Bulgarians to oppose it, and the Greek government was brought down by massive protests that were instigated by the PASOK opposition. The PASOK leader at the time was Georgios Papandreou Jnr, educated and raised in America..and part of some "interesting" fraternities to say the least. He is also a known Free Mason. THAT MAN, Papandreou, pulled the trigger on the crisis. Which was the exact opposite of what he was trumpeting during his election campaign. Just another agent of the world powers who acts against the interests of his country.

And it looks like there will be a deal now at the last minute.
The ECB has also pumped emergency funds into the banks. So if you were going to go on a holiday there, it's all sweet.
I'd still take a fist full of cash though.

a reply to: mortex

Many thanks for the insightful posts, I've been mulling it over and I think I am simply going to postpone until next year. The Parthenon and Delphi, have waited this long, I am sure they can wait another year

Australia's not an option I am afraid. Too hot, wrong hemisphere

Cheers

originally posted by: Anaana
a reply to: mortex

Many thanks for the insightful posts, I've been mulling it over and I think I am simply going to postpone until next year. The Parthenon and Delphi, have waited this long, I am sure they can wait another year

Australia's not an option I am afraid. Too hot, wrong hemisphere

Cheers

Well make sure you get there at least once in your life, it'll be worth it regardless of what the economic situation is in Greece.

And looks like things have taken a turn for the worse.