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What's wrong with Liberals?

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posted on Apr, 5 2015 @ 06:07 AM
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originally posted by: STTesc
a reply to: Gryphon66

So because a group has always been treated a certain way it's impossible for that to ever change? Or are you saying you wouldn't care if that ever changed? I've made my points well known through this thread, you continue to refuse to read them. I'm not going to sit here and retype something simply because you refuse to scroll back a page or 2. I do honestly believe that the white race is being discriminated against. That's my position.

I've gone through 12 pages and I'm eating and going to sleep. You can carry the torch and post to your hearts content. You know my position and you can read where I've defended my position. I owe you nothing more.


SO, that's your position and you offer no objective proof for it. That's your unsubstantiated belief. Since that is the FIRST time you've stated that (although you've changed it slightly from straight-white-Christian-male now to "white race"), fair enough; as long as you're not stating it as fact, I don't care what position you hold; you're welcome to it. Frankly, that's your right.

Enjoy your meal and your nap!
edit on 6Sun, 05 Apr 2015 06:10:05 -050015p062015466 by Gryphon66 because: (no reason given)




posted on Apr, 5 2015 @ 06:42 AM
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So ... now that's settled ... maybe we can rationally look at what liberal actually means.

To start, I'm going to offer a fairly general but consensus-based description from Wikipedia:



Liberalism is a political philosophy or worldview founded on ideas of liberty and equality. The former principle is stressed in classical liberalism while the latter is more evident in social liberalism. Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but generally they support ideas and programs such as freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, free markets, civil rights, democratic societies, secular governments, and international cooperation.

Liberalism first became a distinct political movement during the Age of Enlightenment, when it became popular among philosophers and economists in the Western world. Liberalism rejected the notions, common at the time, of hereditary privilege, state religion, absolute monarchy, and the Divine Right of Kings. The 17th-century philosopher John Locke is often credited with founding liberalism as a distinct philosophical tradition. Locke argued that each man has a natural right to life, liberty and property, while adding that governments must not violate these rights based on the social contract. Liberals opposed traditional conservatism and sought to replace absolutism in government with representative democracy and the rule of law.


I have no exception with any of that. In fact, that pretty much informs my own opinion. So when I hear that liberals are totalitarians, or are anti-free market, or are authoritarian in trying to shut down speech, or religion ... I just shake my head.

The government exists in the modern sense for the purpose of providing and sustaining the infrastructure of a given society. In the United States, that infrastructure is basically found in the construction of the Constitution and the branches of our government with some logical additions based on the progression of science and technology (most of this comes from Articles I-V): provide for the collection of revenues for the central government to operate upon, to borrow money on the credit of the United States, to regulate international and interstate commerce, create a financial system (coin money and regulate the value thereof), establish standards for measurements and weights, establish a system of communication/utility provision and a system of roads, promote the advance of science and technology, provide for the general welfare of the citizens of the United States, provide for the common defense both internally and internationally, provide for the equitable adjudication of the laws of the land in the ultimate light of the Constitution, provide a centralized administration for the government both among and between the states, amend or administer any changes to the Constitution itself,

That's it, that's what I believe.
edit on 6Sun, 05 Apr 2015 06:43:58 -050015p062015466 by Gryphon66 because: (no reason given)

edit on 6Sun, 05 Apr 2015 06:58:07 -050015p062015466 by Gryphon66 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 5 2015 @ 07:02 AM
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a reply to: Gryphon66

As a liberal, I believe in civil rights, equality for all, a secular government, freedom of speech, freedom to peacefully assemble, and the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness - as long as it doesn't encroach on someone else's right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Pretty evil, huh.

Are there "bad" people who claim to be liberals? Sure. Are there "bad" people who claim to be conservatives? You betcha. Are there "bad" people who claim to be Christians or Republicans or Democrats or Libertarians? Of course there are.

So I'm wondering why the OP started a thread focusing on liberals only, when we all know that there are also problems with conservatives and Republicans and Christians and libertarians?



posted on Apr, 5 2015 @ 07:12 AM
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a reply to: kaylaluv

Ah, your liberalism is based in your belief in the US Constitution! Yeah, me too.

I can't answer your question about why OP started the thread. In my own opinion, I thought at first it might be an honest inquiry from a certain position (given the fact that the title regards the "wrongness" of liberals) but as things progressed, it didn't seem to be equitable at all.

I'd be the first to say that some liberals go over the top in searching for equality for all. When you spend time fighting for one group that does not have equality to be made equal, you naturally become an advocate for that side ... which can result in preferential treatment. That always has to be brought back into balance. I agree that some feminists go over the top, as do some gay rights advocates as do some civil rights advocates. That does not excuse the extremist view that one or two or ten bad eggs in the women's basket means that all women are emasculating Nazis. And so forth and so on for the other groups and classes that have had to fight for equal treatment.

I've said before that my greatest issue with the Republican/right-wing/Conservative/Regressive/Reactionary mindset is a hatred and devaluation of science and reason IN FAVOR OF superstition and belief.

When I hear about 90% of what comes out of the modern right-wing ... I feel like I'm in some alternate hellscape universe.



posted on Apr, 5 2015 @ 09:57 AM
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originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: STTesc
a reply to: Wookiep

It's because, at the end of the day, there is a real hatred towards white people in the world. And that hatred is starting to make it's way into Europe and America.


Really, at the end of the day EVERYBODY can claim to be hated by somebody. This is why the idea of a fully integrated melting pot is unrealistic. We should simply divide the Earth into regions, have a central region for everybody who's fully bought into melting pot theory and little separated enclaves for each other group... We're gonna need a lot of areas now that I think about this. Once we've separated just the straight Christian white people, we're gonna have arguments over denominational Christianity... then we're gonna have to split them up into who has blonde hair and who has red hair... goddamned thin people aren't going to get along well with the overweight folks either, so...

You know what? This isn't going to work, either... not enough land. Everybody is going to have to take one for the team here, STFU, and accept the fact that some people simply don't like them. Deal with it, it happens.
(and this goes for EVERYONE, all races, creeds, orientations, nationalities, everyone. Somebody, somewhere doesn't like you because you're you. Live with it, grow some skin, and move on with life.)


Thank you for that. You made me actually Laugh out loud there.

As I see it, as a European/English resident and having lived in Spain for many years previously, the whole argument here can be summed up in one word: LABELS.

I have seen confessed conservatives saying they have liberal tendencies and vice versa.

Yet the problem seems to lie with those who believe the whole dogma proposed by a party line, those who won't think outside those lines set down by their political affiliations.

Solution then: Educate those people to actually think about an issue, rather than just spout off following party lines OR accept that a vast majority are, in fact, sheeple.




posted on Apr, 5 2015 @ 10:45 AM
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a reply to: Jonjonj

I like your idea of educating folks as to the facts and leaving behind party lines. I stand with President Washington on political parties in the US (he counselled against them in his Farewell Address); and surely at this point they are an unpleasant reality, at best. I'm a Democrat because I really see no other option; that doesn't mean I per se agree with everything the Democrats do. In fact, the national leadership, not unlike the Republicans, are currently for the most part two boatloads of fools.

And in some ways I can agree with you that the issues today are based mostly on semantics ... or labels as you stated it. The words we choose can be very important in some cases, and unimportant in others.

However, the fact is that even today when most all Americans enjoy a decent amount of freedom, in general, the remnants of our past still haunt us. Some Americans weren't fully Americans with the rights and privileges accorded thereunto until fairly late in our history. Sodomy laws were not declared unconstitutional until 2003. Racial minorities were not truly accorded equal protection under the laws until 1964 and 1968 in this Country, women could not vote until 1920, and until the 13th thru 16th Amendments, Blacks weren't even considered whole people, but were "counted" as 3/5ths of a person each.

The argument that we do need to leave the past in the past is a decent one, I agree ... except that many do not want to accept that all Americans are equal before the law even today.

That's why I think the issues extend a bit beyond mere labels, but, in general, I agree with everything you said! Cheers!
edit on 10Sun, 05 Apr 2015 10:47:37 -050015p102015466 by Gryphon66 because: Noted



posted on Apr, 5 2015 @ 10:50 AM
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a reply to: STTesc


At what point do you look at what you stand for and think to yourself "this just isn't American"?


Does being an American mean citizens should never question? Everyone sees this world differently. It's not complicated. You think America is exceptional and we shouldn't mess with it. Your experience may not be my experience

Does being an American mean never having to say you're sorry?

If America is exceptional, one of the things that makes it so is our freedom to question and work towards change. Not everybody is going to agree on everything at any one time

From a post found later in this thread:


Hitler is an interesting topic for another thread. Let's just say... history isn't always as written, even if the man became a monster. But I think a lot of the "aryan nation" and neo-nazis see what's going on around them and cling to whatever idea they can to become that change in the world.

You seem to think Hitler had his reasons but went too far. Well, at least you can recognize that much

He didn't become a monster - he created a fertile place for monsters to grow

Do you think Obama and people that support him hate this country? You must be very afraid - of him, all those illegals, people who behave like animals and have to be put down like rabid dogs...people who don't honor our constitution - as much as you do

I love my country - enough to criticize her. Believe you me - she can take it even if you can't

Nationalism is a scary thing. Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel



posted on Apr, 5 2015 @ 11:00 AM
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a reply to: Spiramirabilis

I wasn't going to comment on this issue even though I noticed it early on ... specifically in that quote you posted ... Adolf Hitler "became" a monster. That means at many of the points along the way that history takes note of him he wasn't "a monster." I wonder where that line is drawn? I wonder if Mein Kampf is, in fact, just a misunderstood piece of prison literature?

I noticed a lot of comments about "race pride" and thought, oh well, you know.

But in point of fact, in that quote the Aryan Nation and Neo-Nazis are being held up almost as paragons of social change, aren't they?

That's a decent angle on this discussion; thanks for pointing it out!
edit on 11Sun, 05 Apr 2015 11:18:42 -050015p112015466 by Gryphon66 because: Noted



posted on Apr, 5 2015 @ 11:25 AM
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a reply to: Gryphon66

The liberals in this thread are being treated as Other

When Giuliani recently claimed Obama doesn't love his country, that murmur started to travel - making the rounds to land almost everywhere in the conservative media

Obama has always been a symbol of all that's wrong with everything in America lately, no matter how lame the claim. Obama symbolizing the liberal/progressive agenda also includes any person, thought or plan even a little bit left leaning

It's not just a warning about the others - it's also a not too subtle warning for members of their own clan that leaning even a bit towards moderate would be ill advised

This thread seems like a typical throwaway thread - been done - nothing but more partisan whining...

I see something else
edit on 4/5/2015 by Spiramirabilis because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 5 2015 @ 11:56 AM
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originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
This thread seems like a typical throwaway thread - been done - nothing but more partisan whining...
I see something else
So...you see more than just one's average bridge dweller at the helm?



posted on Apr, 5 2015 @ 12:27 PM
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a reply to: JohnnyCanuck

:-)

Sometimes I'm lucky I see anything at all - apathy is starting to feel like a reasonable choice

But, yeah feels kinda familiar


edit on 4/5/2015 by Spiramirabilis because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 5 2015 @ 12:43 PM
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originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
a reply to: JohnnyCanuck
:-)
Sometimes I'm lucky I see anything at all - apathy is starting to feel like a reasonable choice
But, yeah feels kinda familiar

So would I be remiss in assuming that sometimes it take a Sociology major to spot social engineering at work?



posted on Apr, 5 2015 @ 01:11 PM
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a reply to: JohnnyCanuck

I'm just a chick with too much time and an internet connection

:-)

but sometimes obvious wannabe social engineers are - obvious



posted on Apr, 5 2015 @ 01:26 PM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Spiramirabilis

I wasn't going to comment on this issue even though I noticed it early on ... specifically in that quote you posted ... Adolf Hitler "became" a monster. That means at many of the points along the way that history takes note of him he wasn't "a monster." I wonder where that line is drawn? I wonder if Mein Kampf is, in fact, just a misunderstood piece of prison literature?

I noticed a lot of comments about "race pride" and thought, oh well, you know.

But in point of fact, in that quote the Aryan Nation and Neo-Nazis are being held up almost as paragons of social change, aren't they?

That's a decent angle on this discussion; thanks for pointing it out!


Good morning. Since I can't reply to everyone, this seemed to stand out to me.

Hitler did indeed become a monster, but he was also named Time magazine's person of the year. As an example, how many times did the British royalty meet with Hitler? But I think the insanity started when he decided to invade Russia, I believe that's where the line was crossed. From there it spiraled into complete madness.

Hitler was a dog that got backed into a corner, by his own stupidity (I know, there's that animal reference again). Prior to that though, he did a lot of good for Germany and her people. And as I stated, history isn't always written accurately... mostly because it's written by the victors.

So was his methods early on extreme? Absolutely. Just as extreme as our founding father's committing treason and starting a revolution. But I have a question. Have you read My Struggle? Have you listened to the man speak prior to his spiral into madness? It seems to me that a lot of people like to write off people like Hitler as boogeymen all while praising people like the British royal family that killed and enslaved far more people than Adolf in their own inbred madness.

But let's be honest here. Honestly, I've been, to a point, honest in this thread, until I used a dishonest tactic to make a point. If an honest debate is what you're seeking, using dishonest means to poke and prod at any "gotcha moment" isn't going to result in honest debate. I've shared a lot more than I needed to in this thread, I've stuck to my positions and explained it. And I haven't ducked the hard questions. At the very least, understand that respect is a 2 way street.



posted on Apr, 5 2015 @ 01:33 PM
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originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
a reply to: STTesc


At what point do you look at what you stand for and think to yourself "this just isn't American"?


Does being an American mean citizens should never question? Everyone sees this world differently. It's not complicated. You think America is exceptional and we shouldn't mess with it. Your experience may not be my experience

Does being an American mean never having to say you're sorry?

If America is exceptional, one of the things that makes it so is our freedom to question and work towards change. Not everybody is going to agree on everything at any one time

From a post found later in this thread:


Hitler is an interesting topic for another thread. Let's just say... history isn't always as written, even if the man became a monster. But I think a lot of the "aryan nation" and neo-nazis see what's going on around them and cling to whatever idea they can to become that change in the world.

You seem to think Hitler had his reasons but went too far. Well, at least you can recognize that much

He didn't become a monster - he created a fertile place for monsters to grow

Do you think Obama and people that support him hate this country? You must be very afraid - of him, all those illegals, people who behave like animals and have to be put down like rabid dogs...people who don't honor our constitution - as much as you do

I love my country - enough to criticize her. Believe you me - she can take it even if you can't

Nationalism is a scary thing. Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel


The problem with your points is that you're treated them as if they come from the standard Conservative source. I am not, however, Conservative. There are a lot of things that Conservatives do that make my blood boil. I am positioned far more on the right than the sell out Conservatives and yes, I do believe Obama and the people that continue to support him do hate this country. I believe Giuliani was spot on.

But see, you mistake my words. The point being that Americans should question EVERYTHING. You and I, we have a lot in common, mostly because I consider myself a Liberal - in the classic sense. I'm simply against social safety nets and nanny states. Huh. Someone who considers themselves truly Liberal, in a Libertarian sense, asking what's wrong with Liberals? Interesting.

America was exceptional. Was being the key word. When we led the world in everything from education, to infrastructure to military. Today our position seems to be a much weaker one, both abroad and here at home. But I think a lot of people in this thread would be surprised at just how much we agree on certain issues, that is, if they weren't combing over the thread looking for gotcha moments to win their argument.



posted on Apr, 5 2015 @ 01:37 PM
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originally posted by: STTesc

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Spiramirabilis

I wasn't going to comment on this issue even though I noticed it early on ... specifically in that quote you posted ... Adolf Hitler "became" a monster. That means at many of the points along the way that history takes note of him he wasn't "a monster." I wonder where that line is drawn? I wonder if Mein Kampf is, in fact, just a misunderstood piece of prison literature?

I noticed a lot of comments about "race pride" and thought, oh well, you know.

But in point of fact, in that quote the Aryan Nation and Neo-Nazis are being held up almost as paragons of social change, aren't they?

That's a decent angle on this discussion; thanks for pointing it out!


Good morning. Since I can't reply to everyone, this seemed to stand out to me.

Hitler did indeed become a monster, but he was also named Time magazine's person of the year. As an example, how many times did the British royalty meet with Hitler? But I think the insanity started when he decided to invade Russia, I believe that's where the line was crossed. From there it spiraled into complete madness.

Hitler was a dog that got backed into a corner, by his own stupidity (I know, there's that animal reference again). Prior to that though, he did a lot of good for Germany and her people. And as I stated, history isn't always written accurately... mostly because it's written by the victors.

So was his methods early on extreme? Absolutely. Just as extreme as our founding father's committing treason and starting a revolution. But I have a question. Have you read My Struggle? Have you listened to the man speak prior to his spiral into madness? It seems to me that a lot of people like to write off people like Hitler as boogeymen all while praising people like the British royal family that killed and enslaved far more people than Adolf in their own inbred madness.

But let's be honest here. Honestly, I've been, to a point, honest in this thread, until I used a dishonest tactic to make a point. If an honest debate is what you're seeking, using dishonest means to poke and prod at any "gotcha moment" isn't going to result in honest debate. I've shared a lot more than I needed to in this thread, I've stuck to my positions and explained it. And I haven't ducked the hard questions. At the very least, understand that respect is a 2 way street.


So, June 1941 is the dividing line? Thanks for answering that question! I can tell you have a certain ... admiration for Mr. Hitler (and the Nazi cause as well?). No I haven't read Mein Kampf.

No, in my opinion you have not been universally honest in the discussion, as I have stated. I gave you examples of what I consider your dishonesty.

You stated first that white Christian straight men were "the most discriminated-against group" in the modern world. Then that slowly became "white people are discriminated against." I wouldn't argue with the latter statement; sadly people of all races are regularly discriminated against.

I understand your position much better now in light of these comments. Best!



posted on Apr, 5 2015 @ 01:41 PM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: STTesc

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Spiramirabilis

I wasn't going to comment on this issue even though I noticed it early on ... specifically in that quote you posted ... Adolf Hitler "became" a monster. That means at many of the points along the way that history takes note of him he wasn't "a monster." I wonder where that line is drawn? I wonder if Mein Kampf is, in fact, just a misunderstood piece of prison literature?

I noticed a lot of comments about "race pride" and thought, oh well, you know.

But in point of fact, in that quote the Aryan Nation and Neo-Nazis are being held up almost as paragons of social change, aren't they?

That's a decent angle on this discussion; thanks for pointing it out!


Good morning. Since I can't reply to everyone, this seemed to stand out to me.

Hitler did indeed become a monster, but he was also named Time magazine's person of the year. As an example, how many times did the British royalty meet with Hitler? But I think the insanity started when he decided to invade Russia, I believe that's where the line was crossed. From there it spiraled into complete madness.

Hitler was a dog that got backed into a corner, by his own stupidity (I know, there's that animal reference again). Prior to that though, he did a lot of good for Germany and her people. And as I stated, history isn't always written accurately... mostly because it's written by the victors.

So was his methods early on extreme? Absolutely. Just as extreme as our founding father's committing treason and starting a revolution. But I have a question. Have you read My Struggle? Have you listened to the man speak prior to his spiral into madness? It seems to me that a lot of people like to write off people like Hitler as boogeymen all while praising people like the British royal family that killed and enslaved far more people than Adolf in their own inbred madness.

But let's be honest here. Honestly, I've been, to a point, honest in this thread, until I used a dishonest tactic to make a point. If an honest debate is what you're seeking, using dishonest means to poke and prod at any "gotcha moment" isn't going to result in honest debate. I've shared a lot more than I needed to in this thread, I've stuck to my positions and explained it. And I haven't ducked the hard questions. At the very least, understand that respect is a 2 way street.


So, June 1941 is the dividing line? Thanks for answering that question! I can tell you have a certain ... admiration for Mr. Hitler (and the Nazi cause as well?). No I haven't read Mein Kampf.

No, in my opinion you have not been universally honest in the discussion, as I have stated. I gave you examples of what I consider your dishonesty.

You stated first that white Christian straight men were "the most discriminated-against group" in the modern world. Then that slowly became "white people are discriminated against." I wouldn't argue with the latter statement; sadly people of all races are regularly discriminated against.

I understand your position much better now in light of these comments. Best!


And that's a position I've defended. But I didn't say the world, I said the western world. "White people" are the minority on the world stage, Christians the majority. It's a bit harder to view political issues on a world stage.

But, let us drop whatever hostility there may be between us. It's not going to get us anywhere. I'm an open book.



posted on Apr, 5 2015 @ 01:46 PM
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originally posted by: dukeofjive696969
For canadians i am a greenish liberal, for americans im called a communist, in europe id be considered a socialist.

People have a different view of politics depending where you are from.

You seem confused on what a true liberal is.



To me, a true liberal would believe we ought to be liberated from control, but in America, they seem to think we ought to be controlled by our betters.



posted on Apr, 5 2015 @ 01:50 PM
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a reply to: STTesc



But see, you mistake my words.

You're words began with: What's wrong with liberals? Everything after that was meandering conservative bellyaching and rather awkwardly inserted allusions to supremacist ideology



You and I, we have a lot in common

You've said the same thing to me before. I don't happen to feel that we do

We're not going to be BFF STTesc - but totally up for the argument

For sure

:-)



posted on Apr, 5 2015 @ 01:52 PM
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originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
a reply to: STTesc



But see, you mistake my words.

You're words began with: What's wrong with liberals? Everything after that was meandering conservative bellyaching and rather awkwardly inserted allusions to supremacist ideology



You and I, we have a lot in common

You've said the same thing to me before. I don't happen to feel that we do

We're not going to be BFF STTesc - but totally up for the argument

For sure

:-)


Aww. And here I thought we had something special. Way to totally ruin my dreams and hopes on Easter!




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