Black woman to white friend of over a decade: " Of course you're a racist!"

originally posted by: Poofmander
a reply to: theMediator

The only thing I have to say is the definition of racism applied to the united states prevents all other "races" from being racist because you must be a part of the dominating majority...white people.

So as much as you want to say that saying a while race can't be racist is a racist thing to say literally defies the definition of racism. Really its just a misinterpretation of what racism actually means.

Racism isn't ignorant statements, racism isn't hatred, racism isn't segregation, these are all things that come from a system of racism.

And to be a white male in our system makes you a racist by this course of logic, it is a moot point I know because you can't help it, but also its not a statement about your character its a statement about by our race, hey imagine that racism is racist!

While understanding your point, you are incorrect that this is the only definition of racism. What you are defining in fact is "institutional racism," which speaks to both the power differential and that power and laws being used to oppress a minority groups. I have heard far too many times people make the exact claim that you are doing, claiming that this IS The ONLY definition of racism and then you seek to dominate the discussion through that claim and dismiss other definitions such as projecting prejudice or hatred towards any race, or judging a person based on their race, etc.

Again, if someone judges me to be racist, simply because I am white, they are "judging me by the color of my skin and not the content of my character," something that MLK Jr. was against and so should we all. That goes for white people too.

a reply to: Hoosierdaddy71

They do huh ? I made 30k so far this month, check the date . No problems here . Stop being predjudice

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

In retrospect I see where I was coming off that way and defending that type of definition, and that was really due to the anecdotal story about, how "its your own fault your racist because you came up with the definition" idea. I felt like arguing that point and I can see how outside this discussion being called a racist would piss me off and yes I would deny that I am.

I do conced that yes there are different definitions and that yes we can have racist people on any side of the discussion I just feel that there is a link between accepting that your life is easier because of the color of your skin and feeling that's okay is something that we need to realize collectively.

I do feel that as far as I am stretching it there is something about allowing a broken system to run with your full support and participation without protest that can bring in at least a small bearing on at least how willing you are to fight against injustice around you. I know that kinda sounds like "you're either with us or against us" but in reality is someone that isn't helping fight against institutional racism just as bad?

I don't know, I really like this discussion and would like to hear more please help me, because I surely don't know the answer.

a reply to: abe froman


If you truly want to understand the reasons of racial tensions and seeming incompatibility, just read this:

Read the whole thing in one sitting (about 20minutes). It will blow your mind.

whitelocust.wordpress.com...

a reply to: 8675309jenny

Ya I think more then just that article needs to be read from that site...

Minds will surely be blown.

originally posted by: 8675309jenny
a reply to: abe froman


If you truly want to understand the reasons of racial tensions and seeming incompatibility, just read this:

Read the whole thing in one sitting (about 20minutes). It will blow your mind.

whitelocust.wordpress.com...

If Abe or anyone else want to understand the above as truly simplistic Bull Sh!t based off very bad science, view below as the above blows nothing..just blows!!
Ibn Battuta on the Blacks he visited of medieval Mali:

They are seldom unjust, and have a greater abhorrence of injustice than any other people. Their sultan shows no mercy to anyone who is guilty of the least act of it. There is complete security in their country. Neither traveller nor inhabitant in it has anything to fear from robbers or men of violence. They do not confiscate the property of any white man who dies in their country, even if it be uncounted wealth. On the contrary, they give it into the charge of some trustworthy person among the whites, until the rightful heir takes possession of it.

So much for your violence prone Blacks,who naturally acts on impulse and bereft of self control.



Blacks on abstract thinking in mathematics,writing and design.
I can provide text upon on request..pls klik the above vids
Jenny your Bull sh!t is thus denied..thanks for the opportunity to impart knowledge..
Addendum:

Although still a transitional work, this large painting may be called the first Cubist picture. Its combined influences are manifold, ranging from El Greco, the bathers of Cézanne, and Iberian and African art that Picasso had recently seen at the ethnographic museum in Paris. Picasso made innumerable preparatory studies for this work.
www.metmuseum.org...

Ah donno but how much would a Picasso or early Cubist painting or sculpture run you nowadayz

I went to a 95% black middle school (before High School, but after Elementary School for you non Americans)

During that time, I learned A LOT about racism.

The other "White" kids there were mainly Macedonian. I am 1/2 Cherokee, with Dutch/Irish/German rounding out the other half.

I was discriminated against from day 1. They judged me by my skin. To be sure, there were a few who were good to me. But the overwhelming majority treated me and the other Whites like trash.

I never knew racism in my entire life until then, Nobody talked bad about other races in my house, no one was ever treated any different in our day to day travels. Yet here I was being judged from day 1 as a racist white guy. In reality, they were the racists.

An example I have given here before is when my Mom took me in to be enrolled in the school. She told the Vice Principle (who insisted on doing MY enrollment, and incidentally was Black) that I was a rather gifted Trombone player and needed to sign up for band. I have never seen a quicker reaction. He said "Hold on a minute" and left the room. He came back with a Black lady identified as the band director. H told her that I wanted to sign up for band, and she literally flipped out. "I can't have HIM in my band! He's White!" her exact words. My mom was dumbfounded and as she is not a very worldly woman, not well versed in the ins and outs of civil laws. She simply said..."OK".

I was devastated! Simply devastated. All I wanted to be was a musician.

In my previous school, I was selected for the High School jazz band in the 6th grade. No one had ever been given that honor before. I was really that good at playing Trombone. It all ended that day, and I have never touched one again. That was in 1984.

My point is this. Yes, Black people can indeed be racist. If you judge a person of an other color instantly before you even KNOW them, You. Are. A. Racist.

I was beaten up, threatened, stolen from, made fun of, and my life permanently altered by racism.

I love it when people try to tell me I've never been discriminated against because I'm "White" As if anyone can be immune from racism.

Man, this thread is horrible.

I commented on a thread a couple of days ago about how rude people seemed to be more prevalent on ATS these days and this here thread is a prime example.

I clicked this thread hoping to get some insight into how others feel about this, and got that in some part. But there's some group of people it seems who are targeting the OP, almost ganging up on him/her. I know that it probably isn't, but to some it might even seem like some contrived effort to bully the OP.

Calling him/her an outright liar. For stars and flags, apparently.

So valuable they are! I pay my rent in stars and flags. I never used to be rude on here but recently I have...not so much rude as less reserved.

Look, if you don't like the thread and think it's a grab for stars and flags why even contribute to it? You all came here to accuse the OP of outright lying as if he were making some bizarre paranormal claim without providing evidence, it's beyond ridiculous - a grab for flags, yet you bump the thread continually making outrageous claims presumably based on some previous stuff that the OP said on ATS.

Why waste your time? It's just rude, pure and simple...there's no excuse for it - it#s the same human disease that causes us to be racist int he first place, ignorance.

Why are you guys so certain that it's a lie? I don't know if it is or isn't, and yes - I've read previous threads/posts by the OP, not all - but nothing sticks in my mind about what he/she said to deserve this. The story doesn't seem so outlandish to me, it's hard to say either way. It's not my place to call the OP a liar, this is a rant - I either contribute or don't. If I decide I don't believe the story, I'd simply move on.

I had a similar experience not that long ago...well not exactly the same but it certainly left me feeling a bit rattled. Someone basically gave me a hard time at work for referring to a dude as a black guy...a woman, and she's been a complete tit to me ever since.

I ranted about that...I came home from work that day to an empty house, gobsmacked and wondering what the hell just happened. It actually affected me - I ranted, and I too was told that such a thing couldn't ever happen - that it didn't sound believable.

Like I was claiming that I was the second gunman or something...I honestly don't get it. I remember once reading an amazing thread here on ATS some years ago. A chap told a story of how he'd woken up to find some alien/creature thing in his room, the man attacked and killed this being...it was an intense but fascinating story.

Of course people questioned it...some were outwardly skeptical...but nothing like this. People were captivated either way and the thread resulted in an interesting discussion.

I've no idea what you guys are trying to achieve but it seems to be a common thing on ATS these days.

And no...I'm not "scared" of the OP, what an absurd question to ask...this is ATS. I've never known anyone to inflict physical harm on any other member here on ATS.

As for the OP. I've met people like this before, I worked with a black girl years ago and she was a lot of fun, but she was the most racist person I've ever known. Everything boiled down to race, there was always a distinction made in everything she said...black people are like this, white people are like that.

But I know far more white people who have a similar attitude towards other races. I have an uncle who married a black woman and a cousin who married a black man. They're part of my family and genuinely nice people. That's all they are, people.

It can manifest in different ways but at the end of the day the underlying tone is closed-minded ignorance.

I don't know if your story happened, or care - but like a few I'll give you my opinion and say the best thing you can do in this situation is gently remind yourself that you caused no harm or foul.

That's all I have to say about that - I'm flagging for the fact that, despite the outright ignorance towards you, you still managed to start a decent thread with insightful contributions...and also to make a point, because I'm pig headed.

a reply to: samerulesapply

No it was a horrible thread, especially if one views the O.P's thread making or participation history, this thread is not in a vacuum, whether he is being truthful or not,one have to look at the possibility that his supposedly "Black" friend/friends might be right about him specifically, and others doubting his story well they have a right to because his O.P is anecdotal at best, his Black friends are not here to explain or defend themselves everything said so far is hearsay which creates doubt.

a reply to: Spider879

Well I don't know the OP well enough to say whether or not he/she is a racist and I'm not going to insinuate such a thing.

I'm taking the thread for what it is...again, why bump a thread you find so repugnant? It takes about the same level of assumption or leap to arrive at the conclusion that the OP is a lie as it does to assume it isn't a lie but the OP is indeed a racist...as if they're the only two options.

I simply don't get why people are leaping to such a negative conclusion given the opening gambit...yes, it is anecdotal, so are lot's of things on ATS.

Isn't the object to contribute to a thread? I don't think accusing someone of lying in a rant thread is constructive of contributory in any way, it's just hating because people want to...there's no need.

I still find it funny that people who apparently dislike this thread and/or the OP are actively responding, which tells me they're watching and waiting...not really what I'd do on a thread I've such ill feeling about.

But fair enough, your opinion is no less valid than mine. I do not know the OP, just trying to understand why people are immediately leaping to such conclusions in such a rude fashion, that's all.

originally posted by: Vasa Croe
Perhaps you should explain to her that the very first slave owner in America was black...have her research Anthony Johnson...may be an eye opener for her.

Maybe you should look up one John Punch, the first slave in the colonies that would later become the United States. That was in 1640, well prior to Anthony Johnson and the Casor case.

In the case of John Punch, he escaped indentured servitude (which was a form of slavery; sometimes closer and sometimes further from what we think of slavery) with two white men. Those two didn't didn't get sentenced to life as a servant (aka a slave), while the 'negro' did.

Not only was it based on racism then, it was also the first case of slavery by court order. So no, you're wrong.

I am of IRISH descent in my adopted family, WE just got drunk and moved on after slavery...perhaps a valuable lesson there.

a reply to: abe froman

When someone generalizes about a group based on their skin color, its bigotry. Racism is the belief that people are superior based on their skin color. I think both white and black people are capable of BOTH. All humans are racist I believe, because every race thinks they are superior to every other. Asians think they are smarter than whites, whites think they are smarter than blacks, blacks think white people are morally inferior. I think we are all guilty of it to some degree.
I am of mediterranean descent. Which means dark hair and my skin falls into the olive tone, not white. Some Southern Italians and Greeks are pretty dark skinned. Although mediterranean people are deemed caucasian, most whites don't see it that way. When I was a kid, in a very white suburb of Detroit, in the late 1960's, I didn't fit into the blond blue eyed demographic very well and some of my clearly racist white teachers never let me forget it. My music teacher once got mad at me for nothing at all and said "I don't want THAT kid in my class" A lot of the other students treated me differently to the degree that I noticed it. It wasn't until many years later I talked to one of my "friends" from those days and he alluded to the fact that because I looked different, the kids treated me differently. It was devastating at the time, and I have never fully gotten over the way I was treated. And to this day I still feel that distance from white people who don't consider me white. But I bet if you went back and asked all these people if they were being racist, they would have reacted overwhelmingly that they weren't racists. My point is that sometimes people ARE racist and don't realize it because their entire society finds it acceptable and its just the way they have always acted. I think the OP was offended, but never tried to be in the shoes of the women who made the statement and tried to understand what she really meant.
One thing I do know is that there are good and bad people in EVERY race and when we generalize we are missing out on finding out that we are far more alike than different. I pray people start to think more deeply about race (ALL people) and we can somehow get past this as humanity at some point, because the world is getting smaller every day, and our problems are shared by all of us.

originally posted by: cavtrooper7
I am of IRISH descent in my adopted family, WE just got drunk and moved on after slavery...perhaps a valuable lesson there.

No the Irish created Tammany Hall took over fire ,police dept and longshore's man jobs, from there branched off into many other venues and worked their way into the emerging middle class where they were accepted some what begrudgingly as whites.

a reply to: Spider879

I'll drink to THAT ...wait

originally posted by: Jahari
a reply to: abe froman

If your not racist what's the point of this thread? Are you doing it to get another person of colors view or are you fishing for all the white people to chime in about how wrong your friend is. Is this your vindication? Are you looking to be convinced? If you ask me your a bigot. I just don't see a point of posting this thread.

This is a problem as well. Whites arent even allowed to discuss certain things or they are called racist.
I believe the point of this thread is to discuss the mentality of the blacks (not all of them). I see this very issue everyday.

originally posted by: Poofmander
a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

In retrospect I see where I was coming off that way and defending that type of definition, and that was really due to the anecdotal story about, how "its your own fault your racist because you came up with the definition" idea. I felt like arguing that point and I can see how outside this discussion being called a racist would piss me off and yes I would deny that I am.

I do conced that yes there are different definitions and that yes we can have racist people on any side of the discussion I just feel that there is a link between accepting that your life is easier because of the color of your skin and feeling that's okay is something that we need to realize collectively.

I do feel that as far as I am stretching it there is something about allowing a broken system to run with your full support and participation without protest that can bring in at least a small bearing on at least how willing you are to fight against injustice around you. I know that kinda sounds like "you're either with us or against us" but in reality is someone that isn't helping fight against institutional racism just as bad?

I don't know, I really like this discussion and would like to hear more please help me, because I surely don't know the answer.

Thank you for the respectful response and I apologize if I came across as frustrated. It's just that I've seen that argument used too many times to shut down any other viewpoints about racism.

I agree with your other points in this post. Yes, there are both vestiges of historical racism, which have placed a greater proportion of minorities into inter-generational cycles of poverty. Hence, not only to help the poor in general, which is social justice in addressing inequality and the impacts of poverty, but helping those who are still feeling the effects of oppression, is part of redressing the impact of history.

Also, there arguably still is institutionalized racism or at the very least, some implicit racism and overt racism in some people. Implicit racism studies show that many white people actually still harbor unconscious racist feelings towards some minority groups.

Therefore, I agree with you that with all of that, we are responsible as white people for first looking within ourselves and our lives for any vestiges of racism, stereotypes, etc, and then second committing to not supporting any kind of continuing oppression, whether that be of a race or any other kind of group. That, is all anyone can be expected to do.

However, some of us have done that. For example, I have spent the last 10 years trying to work on social justice issues, both academically and professionally.

So when occasionally a person of color, or even a white liberal, projects on to me because I'm a white dude and assumes I don't know sh$t about all of this or that I'm even somehow a bigot myself, I get rightfully peeved. In reality, often I've studied more and done more to address it than many of those same people projecting on me.

I want to say that once again none of those projections by said people in any way negate the reality of historical oppression of minorities in the US, nor does it negate that white privilege exists.

Racist

a person who believes in racism, the doctrine that one's own racial group is superior or that a particular racial group is inferior to the others.

There is a black president, how can anybody feel they are better than the whole group at this point, there are smart people of every race doing jobs that require a higher education. I think it is not a race issue anymore but a class issue, since that is effected by the cyclical economic variables and parenting skills. A white brain surgeon might feel superior to a black garbage collector, but not a peer that was black. But then again he would feel better than a white garbage collector as well.

It's about class more than race now, we all bleed red, and do other human functions the same.
Class racism is just as evil, but it's harder to fight, human nature being what it is.
As for the woman reaction, it is a vast generalization, however this is the test whatever race you say you are not racist against, would you marry into that race ?
For example if man said he would never marry a black woman, would that not revel racism ?
On the converse if a black woman said she would never marry a white man, same thing.

wow the people worried about the OP have really made this otherwise potentially revealing conversation into a crap fest.

Here is the fact of the matter. Racism will be alive and well until everyone gets their heads out of their asses and realizes that until ALL forms of racism are addressed, there will be no change.

Until black supremacy and its more cowardly passive racism are addressed like other racism and supremacy ideals are in other groups, no one will see the efforts of anti racism as being more than a ploy by PC culture to fill our minds with BS and nonsense or just as a bargaining chip by dicks like Jessie jackson and al sharpton for personal gain of a few over many.

EXCUSE US for not walking on egg shells when talking about black on white racism. No one is going to tell me different having lived it. Hell I have had to deal with black on brown racism towards my Mexican wife.

If anyone is sooooo worried about the authenticity of the OP then just address the other people who have had similar things happen to them. What its all a lie and everyone is in on it?

Please.

Blacks can be as retarded as whites. Deal with it.

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

white privledge huh? Got examples? Ive been passed over for things because im white plenty of times.That privledge dont exist Its just the one percenters who actually have that. the rest of us are just as bad off as anyone else.