Shamanism, The Once Universal Spirituality

By the way, I'm proud of ATS for allowing this thread to stay up, even letting it make an appearance on the front page. The inability to discuss things like this has been very frustrating to me. I've tried to be careful with my wording, and what I say. But, happy/proud they're allowing reasonable discussion.

a reply to: bb23108

As you say, the Absolute works with all, over the course of many lifetimes. There are as many paths as there are people, so I'm inclined to trust the transcendent to play the long game, and not worry too much about ephemeral things like the current state of society.

Easier said than done, I know.

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originally posted by: TheJourney

originally posted by: bb23108

originally posted by: BlueMule
On the other hand,

4.11 “As men approach me, so I receive them. All paths, Arjuna, lead to me.”

-The Bhagavad Gita

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The Divine Reality will receive all, and work with all, but the more you get infilled by the Divine, the greater the responsibilities for moment-to-moment transcendence of conditional patterning is given to you.

There is nothing on this planet more effective at assisting in the transcendence of conditional patterning than the visionary substances. Hence why it has been demonstrated to be remarkably effective at curing alcoholism, drug addiction, depression, and rehabilitating prisoners. Transcending conditional patterning is one of its most primary effects.

And this is also the primary reason it's illegal, imo. These things are a tool to totally transcend your conditioning, question everything you have been taught and the world-views you have taken and assumed to be true. This is not something the government wants. A tool that will just totally allow people's conditioning to be lifted, and if used intelligently could allow them to consciously choose new patterns to structure their own mental make-up? See how dangerous that is to the authorities? THAT is the real reason they are so demonized.

a reply to: TheJourney

But, there are some places that are getting smart about entheogens. As results pour in, other places will notice.

Experiments on using hallucinogens to treat prison inmates have rarely been conducted in the U.S., but UCLA professor Dr. Charles S. Grob thinks that “ayahuasca has great potential because under optimal conditions, it can produce a transformative experience in a person.”

massappeal.com...

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originally posted by: BlueMule
a reply to: TheJourney

But, there are some places that are getting smart about entheogens. As results pour in, other places will notice.

Experiments on using hallucinogens to treat prison inmates have rarely been conducted in the U.S., but UCLA professor Dr. Charles S. Grob thinks that “ayahuasca has great potential because under optimal conditions, it can produce a transformative experience in a person.”

massappeal.com...

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This is true. As I have been hearing it, they are slowly starting to sanction new studies. One study I read about used one to treat depression in terminal patients. And it was a relatively small study, but 100% of the people involved reported that their anxiety and fear of death was almost entirely lifted, and they felt 100% confident that there was more beyond this physical life, and therefore nothing to fear.

And keep in mind, these studies WERE being done in the 50's up into the 70's. They WERE proving all of this. It was in the midst of positive results after positive results that they began to demonize them, and make them illegal. The results were TOO positive, if you ask me. My god, they seem to have actually found substances that will literally let them take control of their own minds, and from there can use that in any way they wish. Certainly can't allow that! They did a decently large-scale study on inmate rehabilitation, as you mention, in the 60's. The results? Normally, within a certain window something like 80% would return. Of the group they tried using mushrooms in rehabilitation, 20% returned. They flipped the results! This was just one of many amazing studies being done. And then, AFTER seeing positive result after positive result, they make them illegal.

There is more yet, that really shows the hypocrisy of the government, and how wrong it is. Prior to all this psychological help and spiritual illumination stuff catching on, the government was conducting its own experiments with these substances. What were they testing? To see how effectively they could be used to brainwash people, mentally torture them, program then to carry out actions and then forget they ever did it, etc. Basically, they were doing evil experiments, to see if they could use it for their own increase of power, in quite negative/evil ways. Then people started using it for psychological self-improvement and spiritual illumination. And they were being very successful, and learning how to use them more and more effectively. But the government couldn't allow that! So THAT is when they made them illegal, despite the evil they themselves did with them.

originally posted by: TheJourney So to call this some little quick route to feeling good, is completely divorced from the reality of what these things do, and makes it seem like you have no idea what you're talking about.

Makes it seem like is right. Once again, you are presuming something.

If you say you used to use these things, fine, but you are now making very inaccurate simplistic statements about them, either way.

If I did say that, but I didn't, did I?

More assumptions.

I'm starting to get the notion behind this thread... the promotion of personal drug use for something which is so far removed from shamanism that the ancient practice isn't even visible under a microscope here. Shamanism is about the ability to help others find something, whether it's personal relief or where the next herd of antelope/buffalo/seals are to be found.

It sure isn't about getting your personal head space tweaked. That's just selfishness.

I wish you fortune on your own path.

a reply to: TheJourney

Yeah, but please dear friend don't be mad at them. It's this period of unenlightened time, which will pass, that gives meaning to periods of enlightenment. Otherwise, we have uniform stagnation.

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originally posted by: masqua

originally posted by: TheJourney So to call this some little quick route to feeling good, is completely divorced from the reality of what these things do, and makes it seem like you have no idea what you're talking about.

Makes it seem like is right. Once again, you are presuming something.

If you say you used to use these things, fine, but you are now making very inaccurate simplistic statements about them, either way.

If I did say that, but I didn't, did I?

More assumptions.

What am I incorrectly assuming? This is the direct quote from you:

originally posted by: masqua
And, as with all things quick and easy, it is mainly about finding pleasure and has little to do with 'understanding' anything. There are no fast lanes to gaining knowledge.

My post was critiquing your sentiment that these things are just a quick way to feel good and has little to do with understanding. And you respond by saying I'm making incorrect assumptions. So you DON'T think these things are just quick ways to feel good, that have little to do with understanding? Then great, guess I don't have to disagree with you. If that's the case, I'm not sure what else your first post could have meant. Or, if you are saying that, then I didn't make any incorrect assumptions, just disagreed with you, in which case your latest post talking about my 'inaccurate assumptions' doesn't make sense...

a reply to: masqua

I've experienced profound mystical states of both kinds. The most profound was without the use of entheogens. But I've realized, both kinds have a legitimate place in the shamanic toolbox.

Shamans have an awakened something inside of them, like an inner guru, that guides them. It's not for others to tell them if and when entheogens are to be used.

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originally posted by: TheJourney


There is nothing on this planet more effective at assisting in the transcendence of conditional patterning than the visionary substances. Hence why it has been demonstrated to be remarkably effective at curing alcoholism, drug addiction, depression, and rehabilitating prisoners. Transcending conditional patterning is one of its most primary effects.

Again, we have to define our terms. When I speak of conditional patterning, I am including ALL conditional patterns, not just the physically-oriented ones like you are mentioning above. As you know, there are all kinds of patterns - gross, subtle, causal - and of course various practices, including, as you are mentioning, various substances, that help people with releasing these particularly gross body-oriented patterns.

However, I am talking about releasing ALL points-of-view, not just the conventionally negative or gross physical ones. No technique or substance will actually enable transcendence of all patterns, because they cannot get at the actual root of attention that is creating point-of-view, a moment to moment activity of contracting upon an illusory point (the ego-I) within.

In other words, no amount of self-effort or conditional approach will release the knot, or point-of-view making machine, of attention. It is impossible - like picking oneself up by the bootstraps.

So I disagree with you because Reality is actually "more effective at assisting in the transcendence of conditional patterning" than anything else. Only the Divine Reality truly avails, and when there is real whole bodily turning to the Reality we all are a modification of, Reality reveals itself as unconditional Being, Consciousness, Love-Bliss, Energy. This is the only complete cure for one's deep heart impulse to fully love and be loved.

a reply to: BlueMule

It seems to me that shamans and oracles used by the Tibetans (www.youtube.com...) do exactly the same thing, they communicate with entities that exist between worlds. Problem that Tibetans tell is that many of those entities pretend to be something/someone that they are not, perhaps they too are fooled. So its a bit like playing Russian roulette, you could find yourself entrapped with an entity that leads you down the wrong path.

a reply to: glend

All paths lead to the Absolute, eventually. The wrong path is only wrong insofar as you stumble and fall. And yet,

'Where you stumble and fall, there you will find gold.' -Joseph Campbell

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a reply to: BlueMule

Been gold hunting and got sick of digging holes, prefer the more direct route

a reply to: glend

More power to you, friend. 💪

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