Originally posted by TheBandit795
The only people in Venezuela who don't want Chavez around are the wealthy and the ultra wealthy. They control the T.V. stations (Venevison and Radio
Caracas). The wealthy people are a minority, but they control almost all wealth and assets in the country. And personally I find that the most of them
are arrogant people, they come to Aruba on vacation and think they're blue blood or something. Treat everybody (from the taxi drivers to the
employees, and other guests in the hotels) like crap. Seriously, I've seen it happen again an again. Most of the time when there's a problem at a
hotel I often stay it, it's because of the Venezuelians. Now Chavez wants to help the poor (of which the people come to Aruba every week illegally by
boat because they want to find a job), and instantly he's a communist.
Around Caracas there are numerous shanti towns on the hills. The shanti towns are incredibly poor villages with small wooden huts in which people
live in deplorable conditions. Not one president before Chavez wanted to help those people. Chavez wants to help those people now and instantly he's
a commie. This situation looks similar to Guatemala in the '50;s when the president of guatemala took (unused!!!) land away from the United Fruit
corporation to give to the poor. Instantly he was labled a communist and the CIA sponsored a coup to install a dictator in Guatemala that was friendly
to the corporation. During that regime about 100000 people were killed. Do they want to do that to Venezuela too??? For even more Venezuelian people
to flee to Aruba??
There's nothing quite like first hand testimony- God I love ATS.
Megaquad: While I am trying to be respectful of your position (because I understand it and once shared it; I am a recovering Neocon and still a proud
conservative] I do find it disturbing, and I am interested in discussing it a bit if you dont mind. (If my phrasing seems a little soft its because in
honor of ATS 4.0 I have introduced a kinder gentler Vagabond 4.0, which tries not to call people to the carpet for their personal views.)
Anyway here goes. I agree with you that it is irresponsible for a leading nation, especially one which sits on the UN Security Council, to sow crisis
and to set a poor example by ignoring the development of "rogue states". If Venezuela or any nation begins to show signs of aggression such as
making territorial claims or extortionate demands on its neighbors then it is the duty of the United States to intervene by any means necessary for
the protection of the innocent. That being said, leading nations such as America would be equally irresponsible if they set an example of forcibly
interfering in the domestic affairs of neighbors in any situation that does not clearly concern violations of human rights or international law. If
America can use intelligence or military operations to interfere in the domestic affairs of strategically important nations, so can other leading
nations like France, Russia, and China. For that matter, even Iran, North Korea, Indonesia could take a lead from this. Do you approve of the way
France is helping Muslim refugees from Burkina Faso invade and conquer Cote d'Ivoire? Do you approve of Russia's involvement in the Ukranian
election scandal? Do you approve of China's hold on Tibet or their insistence on control of Taiwan? Would you be OK with Iran helping the Taliban get
back into power? If you didn't answer yes to all of the above, then objectively speaking you would almost certainly not support the principles
underlying American involvement in Venezuela's domestic affairs.
I believe it is wrong to dictate the economic, social, or foriegn policies of other nations. If Venezuela democratically decides to institute
socialist programs and create an oil dependent economy that is their perogative- if we warned them it wouldn't work then they shouldn't expect us to
bail them out when it blows up in their face, but we can't tell them what to do. We've been wrong before you know.
Also if Venezuela wants to establish relationships with nations we dont like they can do that. I can't make people I know break off their friendships
with other people I dont like, can I? We dont have to associate with Venezuela, just like I dont have to associate with people who hang out with my
enemies. Just dont try to have it both ways- we can't punish Venezuela for going around with Cuba and still want to profit from them any more than I
can turn my back on a friend who hangs out with my enemies and still expect a Christmas gift from that person.
You bring up their arms purchases as evidence that they are hostile. It is hipocrisy for any nation with an military to criticize other nations for
upgrading their defenses. Britain has developed a new grade of Chobham armor that not even we have been allowed to purchase yet- does that make the UK
hostile or provokative towards other North Atlantic nations?
America is developing 5th generation fighter aircraft- does that make us hostile or provokative towards Mexico and Canada or anyone else for that
matter? (I know that some people would say yes, and before those people even bother let me assure you that in and of itself, apart from America's
other policies, the answer is no).
Last but not least, you have blamed their government on older an less educated people. This is a very insulting accusation. Can you even grasp what a
slap in the face it is to a nation to say that their democratic choice proves that they're ignorant? Oh wait, I'm sure you know exactly how that
feels, just as I do, because anti-americans and far leftists have been screaming it at the top of their lungs for the last 4 years towards America's
You know, lets get real here and put aside what is proper. If people are so friggin stupid they can't run their nation, they ought to be conquered.
When I meet somebody who is really stupid and has nothing to offer to discussion, I conquer them by ignoring everything they say and doing whatever I
think is best even if it affects them. If you view of Venezuelans is that they are so ignorant that they cant run their own country, you should be
able to say here in public that America should colonize Venezuela and strip anyone with an IQ below 120 of their civil rights. If you aren't willing
to say that you dont have to appologize, but I would kindly suggest that you temper your comments about the compitence of the Venezuelan electorate.