It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

What is the difference between a statist conservative and an anti-statist libertarian?

page: 1
6

log in

join
share:

posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 04:12 PM
link   
What is the difference between a statist conservative and an anti-statist libertarian?

What are the real differences?

What are the differences between an statist "liberal" and a libertarian socialist?




posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 04:25 PM
link   
a reply to: John_Rodger_Cornman

I would give off "compassionate" conservatives as good examples of statist conservatives. They don't believe in smaller government, instead they believe in what they call "smarter" government. Therefore, they don't think the problem is the size or scope of the beast but in how it's being used and run. Apparently, they think they can trim enough fat or something to appease people. For those who appeal to the religious, they talk about using the government to do God's work which is always a huge red flag to me -- Mike Huckabee is one of these. Most of the establishment Reps are this kind. My guess would be that they don't want to repeal Obamacare simply because they figure it can be an eternal camapaign issue -- We know you hate it! We try and try to repeal it ... but we fixed it until we can get rid of it."

They aren't really what I would call conservative at all because real conservatives I know actually want smaller government and believe in the social conservative positions.

The only real difference between most true conservatives and anti-statist libertarians is that the libertarian is going to disagree on some of the social issues like abortion, being more pro-choice. They actually aren't that far apart on gay marriage with most conservatives wanting government out of it entirely so that it falls as contract law
if anything. Basically, they want to right to be able to continue to call marriage what they believe it is for them, but they don't want gays to not have what they consider a marriage and they'd like a more live and let live on both sides.

If most conservatives could be convinced that we'd have a mostly decent society publically, they would likely not care as much about the social stuff, but they see the culture as it has degraded to the point where "public decency" is stretching it. They/we worry that the libertinism of a truly libertarian society would be overwhelming at the outset, and we might not find a grounded center.

For the most part, religious fundies aren't even as involved in politics as they're made out to be. I know, I have some in my family and they are mostly content to leave it to God as are most of their church even if it doesn't stop them having their opinions and beliefs about those things.

I won't address the other two.
But I'd go with the first two since I seem to sort of live on the boundaries.



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 05:24 PM
link   
One believes that the state should have authority, one believes the state should serve, one believes the state shouldn't exist or exist minimally.



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 05:32 PM
link   
There is quite a bit of flexibility and shades of gray but talking in broad terms

Conservatives (Right-wing Authoritarians) believe the people should be free economically wherever possible especially when it comes to facing the consequences of their actions (both good and bad) but that they need to be kept on the right path socially and culturally otherwise they will fall into self destructive patterns.

Libertarians (Right-wing Libertarians) believe that the freer the society the better that society is for all people. They believe that when not manipulated by the state the economy is stable and usually free from monopolies as well making society at large wealthy enough to support through patronage and charity those in need.

Progressives (Left-wing Authoritarians) believe that humans are tabula rasa (a blank slate) and that the more perfect the society the more perfect the people become. Because of this they tend to restrict/outright oppose things that they feel are "problematic" and worsen society as a whole such as free markets and hate speech.

Liberal (Left Libertarians) They believe that all people should be socially free to live their lives however they see fit "I don't agree with you but I'll defend to death your right to say it" is something they would be likely to say. However they believe that capitalism creates inequality and limits freedom so they want to set up governmental safety nets and support to aid all people in their pursuit of what ever life they want.



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 05:38 PM
link   
I don't get this obsession to pidgin hole people with labels.



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 06:22 PM
link   

originally posted by: crazyewok
I don't get this obsession to pidgin hole people with labels.


I would say that this is a necessary and helpful elucidation of some of the heretofore overlooked dramatic differences.

Statist simply means one who advocates for strong governmental control and/or oversight over the economic and social lives and activities of everybody.

Socialists consist of social democrats and social conservatives (a fact that they don't like to admit but is true).

Interventionists desire a "third way" which mistakenly attempts to achieve the best of both worlds by cherry picking elements of planned societies while pretending that the deleterious effects on the economy and society can be 'managed'.

Libertarians are the only true liberals (free and open economy with minimal government and no social intervention).



posted on Apr, 2 2015 @ 04:28 PM
link   
a reply to: monkofmimir

Interesting read.

So the statist are just left and right fascism.

Left fascism is more passive(progressive lol....like the fabian socialists operate) while right is more direct and to the point.



posted on Apr, 2 2015 @ 04:29 PM
link   
a reply to: ketsuko

I agree.

The state should not be expected to enforce morality. The people should act out morality locally.



posted on Apr, 2 2015 @ 06:11 PM
link   

originally posted by: John_Rodger_Cornman

So the statist are just left and right fascism.


I think that is a fair assessment, fascism can fall anywhere across the left/right spectrum. The Nazis for example were (for want of a better term) moderates who hated both the left and the right, They thought the dogma of left/right needed to be put aside and issues needed to be dealt with on a point by point basis.



posted on Apr, 3 2015 @ 01:55 PM
link   
a reply to: monkofmimir

The nazi's where nationalists so they didn't hyper-centralize the economy like the marxists do/did but they embraced national collectivism(public is conditioned with ritualized racist pro-statist dogma) and denied the individual like the marxist so/did.

Fascist allow for regulation free monopolized markets unlike collectivism. That is why the CIA made Faustian deals with fascist dictators aka operation gladio.

China right now is more left fascist that communist. The US is very right fascist.
edit on 3-4-2015 by John_Rodger_Cornman because: added content



posted on Apr, 3 2015 @ 02:04 PM
link   
One is patriotic to their given collective ,the other is more individually motivated.
Until we know what is happening with complete understanding ...which I have YET to meet or even HEAR of someone who actually DOES I would suggest the US is oligarichally ruled now.
Like the devisive LEFT vs Right illusion in order to achive manipulation.
edit on 3-4-2015 by cavtrooper7 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 4 2015 @ 02:31 PM
link   
a reply to: cavtrooper7

After looking at the political compass test results of politicians, it seems most US politicians are fascists.

Most of the public are center-left libertarians.



posted on Apr, 4 2015 @ 03:40 PM
link   
a reply to: John_Rodger_Cornman

Yeah, most modern western politicians are fascist to a varying degree. Unfortunately that seems to be where western civilization is heading.



posted on Apr, 4 2015 @ 04:33 PM
link   
a reply to: monkofmimir

Conservatives (Right-wing Authoritarians) believe the people should be free economically wherever possible especially when it comes to facing the consequences of their actions (both good and bad) but that they need to be kept on the right path socially and culturally otherwise they will fall into self destructive patterns.

Actually the authoritarian subset actually protects cartel and monopoly.

I call them Crony Capatilists, and the worst of the bunch actually use
fake security state issues such as PNAC did to loot the treasury and
give it to the stock holders for the military industrial complex.

I can say I saw this first hand as I was part of it, its pathetic.

Unfortunately most Amerikants believe the MSM brainwashing and
think we need to spend as much as the next 25 nations on "Defense/Offense"
when 24 of them are our allies... Its ludicrous...

This is merely another looting mechanism just like wallstreet was
proven to be by the mass fraud revealed in multiple investigations.

This nation is now a Kleptocracy, government for thieves by thieves.

For thieves refers to the plutocrats who parked $32 trillion offshore.

$32 trillion offshore needs IRS attention

By thieves refers to their puppets on the Potomac.

Hillary implies the CFR run the government

Keep in mind the 32 trillion is only what was able to be traced, some
things were laundered less in the open, and more covertly.

Some of the criminal are almost as arrogant about robbing the
nation blind as mad(e)off and the other looters.

Monopoly will always be attempted by what Marx called the Bourgeoisie.

Marx's term for Kleptocrats, Plutocrats, Oligarchs

I am not a marxist, but he had some valid points, and that is
why some people lined up behind him.

I am a libertarian, and I can see points in all sides, but above all
I believe in personal freedom and liberty until it steps on some
other persons.

The corporations have become a fake construct to hide their
old looting ways, and to avoid prosecution.

I do know right wing libertarians who think corporations should
not have more rights then a human being, and that the humans
running the company should be held criminally accountable when
they make decisions that KILL PEOPLE such as done by some of
Big Pharma and then they get off scott free as in the case of Bayer
and Factor 8.

Bayer and others knowningly infected Asian countries with AIDS


edit on 4-4-2015 by Ex_MislTech because: (no reason given)

edit on 4-4-2015 by Ex_MislTech because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 7 2015 @ 01:18 PM
link   
a reply to: Ex_MislTech

You find is odd that most people here are libertarians(libertarian socialists and libertarian capitalists)
While the corporate owned media that everyone watches is left fascist leaning.
laughing out loud!

Solutions to the megacorp dominated US banana republic is...

-Take away corporate personhood
-Nationalize the federal reserve bank
-back US money up with gold,silver
-back up loans with real hard assets like precious metals,land and fresh water.
-term limits for the congress and senate
-term limits for supreme court justices
-change the term limits for the POTUS from two terms of 4 years to 4 terms of 2 years(its still 8 years maximum).
-reinstall posse comitatus
-remove the patriot act
-remove ndaa
-enforce the logan act
-enforce the open records act
-elect ron paul,rand paul,jesse ventura,gary johnson,bob barr, or bernie sanders as president.

edit on 7-4-2015 by John_Rodger_Cornman because: added content



posted on Apr, 7 2015 @ 01:22 PM
link   

originally posted by: greencmp

originally posted by: crazyewok
I don't get this obsession to pidgin hole people with labels.


I would say that this is a necessary and helpful elucidation of some of the heretofore overlooked dramatic differences.

Statist simply means one who advocates for strong governmental control and/or oversight over the economic and social lives and activities of everybody.

Socialists consist of social democrats and social conservatives (a fact that they don't like to admit but is true).

Interventionists desire a "third way" which mistakenly attempts to achieve the best of both worlds by cherry picking elements of planned societies while pretending that the deleterious effects on the economy and society can be 'managed'.

Libertarians are the only true liberals (free and open economy with minimal government and no social intervention).


Being socially conservative in my daily life, I would disagree. I think people should naturally adopt that lifestyle, not be forced to it through the law. The exception is abortion because I feel you are arguing about two people who both have a right to life in that case.



posted on Apr, 7 2015 @ 01:23 PM
link   

originally posted by: John_Rodger_Cornman
a reply to: monkofmimir

Interesting read.

So the statist are just left and right fascism.

Left fascism is more passive(progressive lol....like the fabian socialists operate) while right is more direct and to the point.


But as we can see with some examples out of social media and or UVA Rape story, passive can be very aggressive in its own way and just as damaging and controlling.



posted on Apr, 7 2015 @ 01:30 PM
link   
a reply to: John_Rodger_Cornman

Why Bernie Sanders? He is an open socialist. If you want personal liberty, that's the wrong way to go about it.

You also need to break the big union monopolies and the public employee unions should also be made illegal. No union should ever bigger than the local entity it is representing its workers against.

Why should we have three auto companies whose workers are all represented by the exact same labor entity? Does no one see conflict of interest there at contract time?

Why should ALL our teachers have maybe one of two choices for union representation nationwide? Does no one see conflict of interest there, either?

If these were private entities and not unions, they would be called out for being the monopolies they are. Instead, they take dues out of worker wages, often automatically, and launder that money through political parties at election time. Usually one party in particular if you go do your legwork. They are a very large brick in the party machine.



posted on Apr, 7 2015 @ 01:48 PM
link   
a reply to: ketsuko

What do you think socialism is?
Libertarian socialism is good. Marxist socialism is a scifi horror movie.

Not all socialism is bad. Just the marxist authoritarian type is horrible.


edit on 7-4-2015 by John_Rodger_Cornman because: added content




top topics



 
6

log in

join