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So where are the conservative and libertarian utopias?

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posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 04:07 PM
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originally posted by: daskakik
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I had already said "I was logiaclly deducing" and in that post I said "It was a guess". So I fully copped to it.


All after the fact. Your 'not past the tribal level' comments was a definitive and was what I was countering prior to you incrementally walking it back in subsequent posts.


I guess you just don't get it.


I do get it, you and the Original Poster have no point.

Here, let me play; Show me all the anarcho-syndicalist commune utopias.

What? There are none and it has never been tried? Must be a failure.

Clown logic at its best.




posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 04:08 PM
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originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: ketsuko
No. I think you're being obtuse.

I said Government is force. That's what it is. Nothing more or less.

And I said there are other forces, as in groups that use force to coerce and I asked if you mean these as well when you say government.



Explain.



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 04:09 PM
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I think the only thing close to an utopia would be in a happy and loving family.



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 04:10 PM
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originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: ketsuko
No. I think you're being obtuse.

I said Government is force. That's what it is. Nothing more or less.

And I said there are other forces, as in groups that use force to coerce and I asked if you mean these as well when you say government.



... to amend my previous because if you're going to say if all government is force, then all force must be government. That's not true. Government is a type of force. Just like all eagles are birds, but not all birds are eagles.



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 04:13 PM
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originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
All after the fact. Your 'not past the tribal level' comments was a definitive and was what I was countering prior to you incrementally walking it back in subsequent posts.

It wasn't incremental. I set it straight in the first post after you asked.


I do get it, you and the Original Poster have no point.

I'd say the point is that failure to exist can be seen as failure. It doesn't exist because it really is an unattainable ideal.
edit on 1-4-2015 by daskakik because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 04:19 PM
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originally posted by: ketsuko
... to amend my previous because if you're going to say if all government is force, then all force must be government. That's not true. Government is a type of force. Just like all eagles are birds, but not all birds are eagles.

So if I'm following you, getting rid of government isn't going to get rid of all force.

There really is nothing to keep the use of force in order to implement another power structure in check.
edit on 1-4-2015 by daskakik because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 04:21 PM
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You know what I think (an realize it's not true in all cases) is that basically conservatives and their libertarian counterparts (and I'm speaking of 'rank and file' not academics) just don't want to pay any taxes or obey any laws. They use the 'sound bites' provided by the invested academics of these theories to justify that simple fact.

It's just about not paying taxes or following anyone else's laws and they just will not look a the consequences of such immature motives.



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 04:43 PM
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It doesnt matter what political stance you take! They all have sold out to human creed! Corporations (money) decide for the most part who what when and where!

Im conservative and I cant stand Obama, Reid, Holder, the whole lot. Then again Bush id a #ty job too but I will say atleast Bush didn't Cuddle with our enemies and alienate our allies!

Uptopia... Im jaded and I think there is zero chance of a utopia on this planet. Humans are by nature not programmed to just get along in a wonderful life of bliss without; love, anger, hate, contempt, jealousy, fear, animosity, frustration......

Personally as a new student of politics Im disgusted by all parties. It reminds me of lord of the flies. We become tribes so caught up in our ideology that we loose common sense! Because it is most recent in my mind look at how Harry Reid lied about Romneys taxes and when interviewed Reid smuggly says "Romney didnt win did he" The ends justifies the means I cause but morally takes a toll!

As far a solutions if we get a conservative as potus that will serve the will of the people, be straight with them, and has some values then maybe the conservative ideals will bear fruit! Cant be any worse then the obamanation we have now!



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 04:44 PM
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originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: johnwick
If true freedom were ever implemented, I don't think people would ever give it away.

Here is the disconnect, how is freedom implemented?


What disconnect?

To implement freedom you dismantle tyranny, discontinue oppression, and cancel control freak policies.



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 04:46 PM
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originally posted by: Greven

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
Actually, by your answers, no, you do not know. It is painfully obvious your understanding of the Libertarian ideology, both historical and contemporaneous, is non-existent.


So, a question - to you or anyone else - how would Libertarian ideology play out if implemented?

For example, would you be able to own any weapon you chose to?


I would say besides nukes ya sounds good to me.

Have to get artillery and planes some place.

With no standing army that place is the people.

Just like in the american revolution.

Most of the US artillery was private owned.



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 04:50 PM
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originally posted by: johnwick
To implement freedom you dismantle tyranny, discontinue oppression, and cancel control freak policies.

Who is "you"?



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 04:51 PM
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a reply to: muse7

Examples of conservative and libertarian "utopias" on earth are Yemen and Somalia or Saudi Arabia


There are no countries with any well being in the world who have adapted conservative or libertarian principles


Accept the countries above and other backward societies

And the US has and is trying to ruin whats left of the country by adapting these non workable inhuman theories

Any country that adapts libertarian or conservative principles will and is failing

That's why no civilized country will do it!




edit on 1-4-2015 by Willtell because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 04:52 PM
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originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: ketsuko
By the removal of force.

How exactly would this be accomplished?


By the power structure applying being dismantled.

How do you think.

It is not complicated.

It is the opposite, it us very easy.

No millions strong federal gov.

Just a skeleton crew for the minimalist gov.

No FBI, no CIA, no NSA etc...

And most important no IRS.

A national sales tax to fund the federal gov required for things like federal courts to settle disputes between states etc.

Shouldn't require even 1/2 of 1% sales tax to fund it.



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 04:55 PM
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originally posted by: johnwick
A national sales tax to fund the federal gov required for things like federal courts to settle disputes between states etc.

So there would still be a federal government?

I don't know what I was thinking.



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 05:10 PM
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originally posted by: daskakik
It wasn't incremental. I set it straight in the first post after you asked.


No, you did not. Stop fabricating. Here is your next post to me after your 'tribal level' blunder:


I can't, which probably means that it doesnt' even do well in that setting, making your claim that much more of a cop out.


And the next:


I was logiaclly deducing that if it ever worked, which I don't really believe anyway, that it would work in small populations like those often found in tribes.

I was being generous taking a bit of the onus off of you.

...

That there are no examples? I think that is a given.


And the next:


I never said that.

...

I know, right?


In the next one you claim you previously said 'might' but in the above posts you never said anything remotely close.



I'd say the point is that failure to exist can be seen as failure. It doesn't exist because it really is an unattainable ideal.


I am sure that asshat King George III thought a Democratic Representative Republic was unattainable since it was never done prior to that. More bizarro logic.



edit on 1-4-2015 by AugustusMasonicus because: networkdude has no beer



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 05:13 PM
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originally posted by: Willtell
Examples of conservative and libertarian "utopias" on earth are Yemen and Somalia or Saudi Arabia


There are no countries with any well being in the world who have adapted conservative or libertarian principles


Explain the Libertarian principles adopted and espoused by the Yemeni and Saudi governments.



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 05:17 PM
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a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Whatever, yes its there for all to see. It really isn't as big of a deal as you are making it out to be.

Hey if you can't contemplate the logic then you just can't. A democratic republic seems like a more attainable ideal so it doesn't really compare does it?



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 05:24 PM
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originally posted by: daskakik
Whatever, yes its there for all to see. It really isn't as big of a deal as you are making it out to be.


Maybe if you like to try and bull**** people it is not a big deal.


A democratic republic seems like a more attainable ideal so it doesn't really compare does it?


And I am sure it seemed very attainable prior to it happening. That is why it happened sooooo many times prior to that.



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 05:30 PM
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originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
Maybe if you like to try and bull**** people it is not a big deal.

Like I said it was a guess at where that ideal might work. That's it. I wasn't trying to BS anyone. I'm willing to bet alot of people would agree.


And I am sure it seemed very attainable prior to it happening. That is why it happened sooooo many times prior to that.

I don't know, they sure don't have the problems that I see in some versions of Libertarianism. Maybe not your own, so YMMV.



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 05:32 PM
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originally posted by: daskakik
I don't know, they sure don't have the problems that I see in some versions of Libertarianism. Maybe not your own, so YMMV.


What version of Libertarianism has problems? Where is it being applied that is problematic and what are the specific problems?



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