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So where are the conservative and libertarian utopias?

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posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 03:32 PM
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originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: johnwick
Without centralized authority how could they?

They would be free to set it up. That is how the wild west ended up being part of the union.


In a libertarian society they couldn't set one up.

It took this long to get where we are just from the freedoms we had in 1776 .

If true freedom were ever implemented, I don't think people would ever give it away.




posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 03:34 PM
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originally posted by: johnwick
If true freedom were ever implemented, I don't think people would ever give it away.

Here is the disconnect, how is freedom implemented?



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 03:37 PM
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originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: johnwick
If true freedom were ever implemented, I don't think people would ever give it away.

Here is the disconnect, how is freedom implemented?


By the removal of force.



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 03:37 PM
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originally posted by: daskakik

Like I said, I don't know. It was a guess that that type of environment could be a place where it might work. Emphesis on "might".


You said no such thing. Show me in the below quote the word 'might':


You saying that it has never been tried instead of admitting that it has never been tried on that scale because it has never worked past the tribal setting, is a cop out.


You are as dishonest as the Original Poster.



I know what it is and I see why it would fail and that that is the reason it is non-existent.

A bit like the question about the chicken and the egg.


The reasons it may never been applied are up for debate but what is not is the Libertarianism, as a system of government, has never been used in any type of scale.



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 03:38 PM
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originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
Actually, by your answers, no, you do not know. It is painfully obvious your understanding of the Libertarian ideology, both historical and contemporaneous, is non-existent.


So, a question - to you or anyone else - how would Libertarian ideology play out if implemented?

For example, would you be able to own any weapon you chose to?



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 03:42 PM
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originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
You are as dishonest as the Original Poster.

So I reworded it to try to get you to see what I meant. Get over it.


The reasons it may never been applied are up for debate but what is not is the Libertarianism, as a system of government, has never been used in any type of scale.

You still have no examples. That was the point of the OP and frankly they would have been better off leaving it at that instead of trying to explain why.



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 03:43 PM
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originally posted by: ketsuko
By the removal of force.

How exactly would this be accomplished?



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 03:48 PM
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originally posted by: Greven
So, a question - to you or anyone else - how would Libertarian ideology play out if implemented?


I would hope that it would enable the majority of the populace to enjoy as much freedom as the Constitution initially implied.


For example, would you be able to own any weapon you chose to?


The Supreme Court has ruled that you cannot own anything you want and I am fine with that.



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 03:49 PM
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originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: ketsuko
By the removal of force.

How exactly would this be accomplished?


Government is force.

A law is force or the attempt to force. Every law that is passed is a choice that cannot be freely made. Every tax levied is confiscation of money I earned through goods I made or services I rendered that is no longer mine by force. That money is then spent for me representing choices I lost the ability to make through force.

Let's start with that and see where you go.



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 03:51 PM
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originally posted by: ketsuko
Government is force.

But it isn't the only force.


Let's start with that and see where you go.

I don't follow.



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 03:55 PM
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originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: ketsuko
Government is force.

But it isn't the only force.


Let's start with that and see where you go.

I don't follow.


Yes, it is. Government is force.

As for where you go, you seem to be trying to play us, so I'm starting with square one to explain force as applies to government. So I did and stopped there to see where you would go.



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 03:57 PM
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originally posted by: daskakik

So I reworded it to try to get you to see what I meant. Get over it.


Yeah, after you got called out on your fabrication.


You still have no examples. That was the point of the OP and frankly they would have been better off leaving it at that instead of trying to explain why.


Again, how can you provide an example of something that has never taken place? It is patently absurd to say 'show my a Libertarian utopia' when a Libertarian government has never been implemented and disingenuous when both you and the Original Poster both know these facts.

A more sound Original Post would have tried to discuss the merits or shortcomings of a Libertarian 'utopia' instead of making a drive by post with a straw man as its premise.



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 03:58 PM
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originally posted by: ketsuko
Yes, it is. Government is force.

Are you saying that all force is government?



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 04:01 PM
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originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
Yeah, after you got called out on your fabrication.

I had already said "I was logiaclly deducing" and in that post I said "It was a guess". So I fully copped to it and then proceeded to reword to clear things up.


Again, how can you provide an example of something that has never taken place?

I guess you just don't get it.
edit on 1-4-2015 by daskakik because: (no reason given)

edit on 1-4-2015 by daskakik because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 04:02 PM
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a reply to: muse7

The problem is not government. The problem is government made up by humans.

Anarchism is the best option but needs to be aided by technology to make it practical in a modern day world full of sociopaths gaming the system. Government composed of people is flawed. Why? Because people are flawed. An anarchist society would still be plagued by the the same problems statists have.

-Greed.
-People's tendacy to want a strong sounding "king figure".
-Sociopaths/Psychopaths manipulating the system to make themselves more powerful at the expense of the many.

Machines have no ego nor do they fear death or crave power.

A government comprised of machines(totally self-regulating AI's) would be superior to normal government and would allow anarchism to exist in the real modern day world.
edit on 1-4-2015 by John_Rodger_Cornman because: spelling



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 04:02 PM
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a reply to: daskakik

No. I think you're being obtuse.

I said Government is force. That's what it is. Nothing more or less.

You want to know how to begin to implement a more libertarian country, then you have to find ways to minimize force and maximize personal liberty. The strongest force in a country ruled by law is the government.



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 04:05 PM
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a reply to: John_Rodger_Cornman

Thank you! While I disagree about an anarchy, I think you make a point that most people overlook too easily.

They rail about the evil people running the big corporations and completely miss that our own Federal Government has easily enough employees to come close to some of those evil corps., and unlike them, government can simply write and rewrite the rules of the game.

It's not like all the saints went into government by some miracle while every single evil person went into business. People are people no matter where you find them or what their occupation.



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 04:05 PM
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originally posted by: ketsuko
No. I think you're being obtuse.

I said Government is force. That's what it is. Nothing more or less.

And I said there are other forces, as in groups that use force to coerce and I asked if you mean these as well when you say government.



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 04:06 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko

What about a government of self regulating machines?
You don't have to pay a machine and they work 24/7 365.

They would truly serve the public. Machines have no ego.



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 04:07 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko

Take away corporate personhood.

That would go along way by itself.



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