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So where are the conservative and libertarian utopias?

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posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 12:15 PM
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a reply to: muse7

Has there ever been a time in our lives when things were so great that no-one ever wanted it to change?

We all want what is better in our life.

We will always want to improve our lives, our standards of living.

I guess the utopian ideal would be to always retain the freedom to make our lives better.

Any freedom removed, limits anyone's ideal of a utopian lifestyle.*



*Unless a person's utopian lifestyle includes no freedoms.




posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 12:17 PM
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originally posted by: macman
a reply to: muse7

And the Progressive ideals show exactly just how clouded your viewpoint is.

Libertarians and Conservatives don't espouse upon 'Utopias".

For Libertarians, we want the freedoms as stated in the founding documents. Not bastardized by Progressive views. Not whored out by Fascist.

There is no such thing as a Utopia except maybe heaven.

What we want is freedom. You want control over your fellow man.


I didn't address this aspect yet, but you are absolutely right.

The left believes gov is the answer to every thing.

I believe they are most of the problem.

We obviously need some government, for the construction of roads etc.

But the monstrosity they have created is just retarded.

We have tens of millions of laws on the books.

Nobody could even know them all let alone follow them all.
edit on 1-4-2015 by johnwick because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 12:17 PM
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originally posted by: macman
a reply to: muse7

And the Progressive ideals show exactly just how clouded your viewpoint is.

Libertarians and Conservatives don't espouse upon 'Utopias".

For Libertarians, we want the freedoms as stated in the founding documents. Not bastardized by Progressive views. Not whored out by Fascist.

There is no such thing as a Utopia except maybe heaven.

What we want is freedom. You want control over your fellow man.


Yeah, I don't know where the OP is getting conservatives and libertarians want some kind of Utopia. Most of us are smart enough and logical enough to know Utopias don't exist; yet that is all you get from liberal and progressive positions. Libs are constantly harping on some world where everyone loves each other, there is no inequality, and unicorns run through fields of poppy.

As a libertarian, I just want to be left alone and not taxed out the wazoo for being successful.



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 12:17 PM
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a reply to: johnwick

and the really bad thing, in my estimation: they are deliberately keeping certain sectors of the population dirt poor, which encourages crime, which generationally creates mental and emotional illness. then they take these mentally and emotionally ill people out of society and put them in prison, instead of in a hospital/wellness clinic, which is creating this huge population of extremely agitated, mentally ill people, being used as slave labor (as if mental/emotional illness were a crime against humanity) and encouraged to think of society at large as their enemies. they are gonna unleash those people on us when tshtf



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 12:18 PM
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originally posted by: YayMayorBee
a reply to: muse7



Please watch. Be educated. Deny ignorance.



Great video. I typically stop arguing with anyone who brings up the 90% tax rate because that stat alone shows they have no freaking clue so it isn't worth debating them.



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 12:27 PM
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I think smaller populations are key...

It's much easier for everyone to come to a consensus or make compromises that work out for everyone in a smaller population.

America is huge and diverse. The needs of someone in NYC have no bearing on the needs of someone in rural North Dakota -- the people are so different that what each cares about is completely dissimilar.

I honestly think America could be broken up into 3-5 countries and have some kind of over-arching currency and mutual defense setup similar to NATO.

We have politicians in DC that are far removed from the day to day lives of the people they represent. Local and state governments seem to be more flexible and nimble in their responses to the people.



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 12:28 PM
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Just curious, the OP posited a question to a bunch of individualists to answer what ideal conformity would best suit that particular group of individualists.

Kind of like asking vegans, to choose the best steak types.

Individualists, true individualists, have their individual ideas of a perfect society and would never force anyone else to conform to their individual idea of utopia.



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 12:28 PM
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if anyone thinks the system is currently designed to help the poor, you must ask yourself why so many of our taxes are deliberately kept from helping minorities and inner city poor. they spend our taxes all over the world, often as leverage or bribes, yet the poor languish in crime ridden, dirt poor, hell holes in our inner cities which are just gigantic cement insane asylums where the doctors have evacuated and the medicine is prison.



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 01:39 PM
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originally posted by: beezzer
Just curious, the OP posited a question to a bunch of individualists to answer what ideal conformity would best suit that particular group of individualists.

No, the OP asked for examples.



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 02:08 PM
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originally posted by: HighFive
I guess the conservative or libertarian utopia would be the 1300's

Where the majority of people owned no land and traded in bread and goats,
while small groups of elites lived in castles and traded in gold, land, and servants.

The peasants had freedom
And those who inherited estates told themselves they attained
their wealth through hard work or supreme bloodline





That's feudalism ... but nice try. It's what most of us left Europe to get away from.



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 02:09 PM
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originally posted by: daskakik

No, the OP asked for examples.


The Original Poster set up a strawman that he could knock down (if he ever revisits his thread).



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 02:11 PM
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At the moment I would say keep an eye on Indiana.




posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 02:12 PM
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originally posted by: johnwick
a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

I think you and I share a lot in common.

I a fiscally conservative and socially liberal as well.

I can't argue with a single point in your post.


The big problem I have with "socially liberal" is that when someone says it ... it almost inevitably comes with laws, and government spending.
edit on 1-4-2015 by ketsuko because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 02:18 PM
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a reply to: muse7

Your thread has a disconnect. You argue (correctly) that our society has never seen a Libertarian or Conservative utopia, but then use that reasoning to say that a Libertarian or Conservative utopia would cause all these problems.

Well how can you say that if you don't have a model to compare it off of? Even in the 1800's and the heyday of American isolationism, we STILL weren't very Libertarian. Heck you can trace government intervention all the way back to the founding of our country with the First Bank of the United States and the whiskey tax that resulted in the Whiskey Rebellion.



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 02:18 PM
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a reply to: MystikMushroom

Not even smaller populations so much as local control through originalist Federalism. If we stopped bending knee to the all=powerful Federal Government and its alphabets crafting one-size fits all policies for everyone ... then local state and municipality/county control would be much more important and responsive and free to address local needs and issues.

This was the original intent and it's being lost because the folks in DC think they can craft policies that work for the folks in Alaska just as well as the folks in Florida.

That's stupid.



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 02:18 PM
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originally posted by: ketsuko

The big problem I have with "socially liberal" is that when someone says it ... it almost inevitably comes with laws, and government spending.


When I say it I mean, 'You do your thing and I do my thing'. If two adults want to get married, why should I care? If you want to spark up a doob, why should I care? There are no additional laws for that, as a matter of fact, there are less.



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 02:19 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko


That's feudalism ... but nice try. It's what most of us left Europe to get away from.


I know it's not a polite question to ask a lady - but just exactly how old are you?

:-)



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 02:22 PM
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The next 25-50 years will see America become a mirror of Europe. America is going through growing pains, we're learning all of the lessons Europe learned on our own. Europe has had a lot longer to sort all of these issues out and get to where they're at. Despite the efforts of conservatives trying to slow, stop or reverse progressive policies, they always and will ultimately fail -- history shows this.

To be fair, the conservative viewpoint is needed. Without a conservative countervailing voice, we'd rush headlong into new changes much to quickly. Having a voice to slow down progress gives us time to hash things out and answer important questions before we move forward.

I also think that for the sake of the thread, the term "freedom" ought to be defined. What does that word mean? Does it mean "do whatever you want, whenever you want"? To me, I think freedom in this context refers to gratifying the whims of one's ego.
edit on 1-4-2015 by MystikMushroom because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 02:23 PM
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originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
The Original Poster set up a strawman that he could knock down (if he ever revisits his thread).

He asked for examples and then went on to explain why there may be some difficulty coming up with some.

Strawman or not, he asked for examples.



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 02:25 PM
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originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
a reply to: ketsuko


That's feudalism ... but nice try. It's what most of us left Europe to get away from.


I know it's not a polite question to ask a lady - but just exactly how old are you?

:-)


Old enough ...




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