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So where are the conservative and libertarian utopias?

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posted on Apr, 4 2015 @ 06:03 PM
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a reply to: daskakik


For example, lets say the SCOTUS decides that the 2nd allows for the ownership of any weapon that the government owns. That would be more freedom in that area. It doesn't mean that someone, anyone or everyone will go out and buy an F22 but it would allow it.


The Second Amendment is not a freedom. It is a check on government. The government is the servant of the citizenry, and the right to keep and bear arms recognizes and empowers that.

Any who has enough money to buy and maintain an F-22 also has enough good intelligent judgment to use it in a lawful way. That is, not hurting anybody else with it.

'Politics is the Art of the possible' and "Manufactured Consent" are what most people's world views had been subjected to.




posted on Apr, 4 2015 @ 06:14 PM
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originally posted by: Semicollegiate
a

Any who has enough money to buy and maintain an F-22 also has enough good intelligent judgment to use it in a lawful way. That is, not hurting anybody else with it.



Why do they?

Why does money=Good judgement?

Putin is a Billionaire and I would hardly say he has good judgement.


Plus at $250 million a pop and likely a another 100 million in maintenance over its life who the hell will be able to afford 1? Let alone a squadron? Your crop duster?


And if if you do have a rich crop duster who buys one, one on its own is useless unless part of a very well trained team.


China and Russia are still bombing your 100% libertarian world while your air force of crop dusters are dead and your civilians are looking on powerless watching there cities burn.


A 75% libertarian society may work.

A 100%? Unless the whole world changes then it wont work.
edit on 4-4-2015 by crazyewok because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 4 2015 @ 06:23 PM
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originally posted by: johnwick

That is where we are right now, the breaking point.

1/2 of workers make less than $25,000 a year.

No money no disposable income.

No disposable income no demand for goods and services.

No demand profits fall, which causes the big corps to cut pay and benefits to maintain profits, which means less money less demand, which means corps cut pay and benefits to maintain profits....etc.

This is truly the downward spiral, because of unquenchable human greed.




The problem with our foreign economic policies with Communist countries like China and other third world countries, is eventually you run out of other peoples money, which is the American Consumer.

The engineers of this globalist utopia rather than looking at their policies, are looking for other places to cut except that you can't get blood from a stone.

Rather than going after all the top wealthy that reaped the rewards from these policies, they are looking to take more from the public and average American. It will not work when you are taking from the same people that buy all these global goods.
edit on 4-4-2015 by jacobe001 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 4 2015 @ 06:30 PM
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originally posted by: Logarock
a reply to: muse7


There are no utopias. Conservatives really don't sell a utopian idea like the left does anyway. Most of the real drivel about ideal conditions flow out of the left and persist even though they have been proven to fail. "workers of the world unite" is a very comical bunch of trashy drivel. The state owning "the means of production" is another large scale fail drivel. I mean we have case detailed examples of this nonsense failing. Lenin history has show was a dammed fool.

Now as far as free market ideas ect all the finer thinking there has to give way to the realities of fiat currency and the Federal Reserve, credit driven economy ect that has attached itself.



All economic systems on paper seem like they would work but they all have a common failing point.
Corruption - Too many chiefs want a bigger cut for themselves and less for everyone else.

Washington DC is infested with Crony Capitalists and Bankers helping themselves out at the expense to this country.
The same thing happened with the Soviet Union where it was too top heavy while everyone else was poor.



posted on Apr, 4 2015 @ 06:36 PM
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originally posted by: johnwick


The left believes gov is the answer to every thing.

I believe they are most of the problem.

We obviously need some government, for the construction of roads etc.



Can you tell me if these are Leftys or Rightys going to the government for their solutions?
It appears the very wealthy approve of Big Government.
It takes a Big Government to respond to the requests from many different sources.

www.opensecrets.org...

Lobbying - Ranked Sectors

Misc Business $6,475,074,239
Health $6,382,737,984
Finance/Insur/RealEst $6,361,287,751
Communic/Electronics $5,206,690,371
Energy/Nat Resource $4,706,049,338
Other $3,350,694,508
Transportation $3,219,680,597
Ideology/Single-Issue $2,073,159,556
Agribusiness $1,910,858,997
Defense $1,819,714,550
Construction $694,573,137
Labor $629,156,951
Lawyers & Lobbyists $429,259,405
edit on 4-4-2015 by jacobe001 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 4 2015 @ 06:46 PM
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One thing people fail to adress

That's how to transition from society now to a libertarian society.

It could be done.

But it would have to be handled delicately.



posted on Apr, 4 2015 @ 06:49 PM
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originally posted by: johnwick


We have tens of millions of laws on the books.

Nobody could even know them all let alone follow them all.


Who writes the majority of the laws?
Lobbyists!

Remember Obamacare was written by the Insurance Industry and politicians said they have to pass it to see what is in it.

Do you think Obamacare passed because of the poor little people or because Pharma and Insurance were loosing money because of their outrageous prices people could not afford in this Globalist Utopia where everyone's wages are stagnating?

Like the Big Banks, Big Pharma and Insurance wanted a cut of other peoples money.
They sit at the top of the totem pole in lobbying.

If corporate taxes are paid for by the consumer, then money shoveled to politicians is also paid for by the consumer

www.opensecrets.org...

TOP Lobbying Industries

Pharmaceuticals/Health Products $3,036,664,697
Insurance $2,115,888,177

Electric Utilities $1,952,406,090
Business Associations $1,740,547,469
Computers/Internet $1,689,701,056
Oil & Gas $1,657,308,948
Misc Manufacturing & Distributing $1,372,990,036
Education $1,363,978,612
TV/Movies/Music $1,312,526,808
Hospitals/Nursing Homes $1,277,629,621
Securities & Investment $1,218,274,363
Civil Servants/Public Officials $1,182,443,515
Real Estate $1,181,046,581
Health Professionals $1,148,899,336
Air Transport $1,078,148,801
Misc Issues $901,519,856
Automotive $860,004,637
Telecom Services & Equipment $828,767,537
Telephone Utilities $816,421,236
Health Services/HMOs $811,712,554



posted on Apr, 4 2015 @ 07:04 PM
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How do Small Government Conservatives reconcile the notion that Money=Freedom of Speech via Citizens United and not realize with unlimited money flowing into politicians coffers will only grow government when they have a lot of new "clients" to serve?



posted on Apr, 4 2015 @ 07:10 PM
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originally posted by: sirlancelot

As far a solutions if we get a conservative as potus that will serve the will of the people, be straight with them, and has some values then maybe the conservative ideals will bear fruit! Cant be any worse then the obamanation we have now!


Why do you think a Conservative President would bring "Change" (Where have we heard that before) when DC is full of special interests groups that will make you out to be the devil in the media if you do not serve them?

In 1970 there were 200 Corporate and Banking Lobby Offices in DC.

In 2015, there are well over 2000 Corporate and Banking Lobby Offices in DC

Here are some of your "politicans"

The Revolving Door in Washington DC

37 out of 40 Goldman Sachs lobbyists in 2013-2014 have previously held government jobs
86 out of 114 General Electric lobbyists in 2013-2014 have previously held government jobs
53 out of 61 Citigroup Inc lobbyists in 2013-2014 have previously held government jobs
118 out of 141 Comcast Corp lobbyists in 2013-2014 have previously held government jobs
59 out of 69 JPMorgan Chase & Co lobbyists in 2013-2014 have previously held government jobs
39 out of 48 Koch Industries lobbyists in 2013-2014 have previously held government jobs

86 out of 116 Boeing Co lobbyists in 2013-2014 have previously held government jobs
53 out of 68 Raytheon Co lobbyists in 2013-2014 have previously held government jobs
33 out of 49 Northrop Grumman lobbyists in 2013-2014 have previously held government jobs
22 out of 30 Monsanto Co lobbyists in 2013-2014 have previously held government jobs
77 out of 103 Wal-Mart Stores lobbyists in 2013-2014 have previously held government jobs
71 out of 97 AT&T Inc lobbyists in 2013-2014 have previously held government jobs



posted on Apr, 4 2015 @ 07:26 PM
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originally posted by: Semicollegiate
The Second Amendment is not a freedom. It is a check on government. The government is the servant of the citizenry, and the right to keep and bear arms recognizes and empowers that.

In the present system the SCOTUS does make this call but be that as it may, it had nothing to do with the point being discussed.


Any who has enough money to buy and maintain an F-22 also has enough good intelligent judgment to use it in a lawful way. That is, not hurting anybody else with it.

I didn't say anything about anyone's judgement.


'Politics is the Art of the possible' and "Manufactured Consent" are what most people's world views had been subjected to.

By who?

Answer that correctly and you might get what I mean.
edit on 4-4-2015 by daskakik because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 5 2015 @ 09:06 AM
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originally posted by: daskakik

I think he was saying "If they are possible, where are they?" and I think it is a valid question.


The you obviously did not read the Original Post:


I keep an open mind on everything and I know that a liberal and progressive utopia is just not possible.


It was outright trolling.



For example, lets say the SCOTUS decides that the 2nd allows for the ownership of any weapon that the government owns. That would be more freedom in that area. It doesn't mean that someone, anyone or everyone will go out and buy an F22 but it would allow it.

I believe that the stance of the Libertarian Party to roll back government but not to roll it back too far is becuase they see this. Of course the pitch is tailored for effect.


Not seeing the 'more conspiracy' angle on this even if your rather unlikely scenario were to occur.



posted on Apr, 5 2015 @ 12:25 PM
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originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
"I keep an open mind on everything and I know that a liberal and progressive utopia is just not possible."

It was outright trolling.

Have you proven otherwise?



Not seeing the 'more conspiracy' angle on this even if your rather unlikely scenario were to occur.

You keep using =, I never said it =, I said it makes it possible.

So in the hypothetical that I posted, making it possible to own an F22 doesn't mean that any private citizen will ever buy one, it just makes it possible.

In that example more freedom private ownership of an F22, just like in everything I posted more freedom "more conspiracy" but it does make it possible.


edit on 5-4-2015 by daskakik because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 5 2015 @ 12:56 PM
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originally posted by: jacobe001
How do Small Government Conservatives reconcile the notion that Money=Freedom of Speech via Citizens United and not realize with unlimited money flowing into politicians coffers will only grow government when they have a lot of new "clients" to serve?


Simple.

The Big Government "Conservatives" are not really genuine "Conservatives".

Many Republicans at the higher levels of government are actually left of center.

True conservatives want less government and little authoritarian policies.

The Liberal MSM has people freaked out.




posted on Apr, 5 2015 @ 01:15 PM
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originally posted by: daskakik

Have you proven otherwise?


That he was trolling or that a Libertarian society could achieve utopia?



You keep using =, I never said it =, I said it makes it possible.



Either way, the premise is preposterous. More freedom does not equal more conspiracy or make it more possible. Less freedom almost ensures a conspiratorial populace as they are oppressed.



posted on Apr, 5 2015 @ 01:25 PM
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originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
That he was trolling or that a Libertarian society could achieve utopia?

Either.


Either way, the premise is preposterous. More freedom does not equal more conspiracy or make it more possible. Less freedom almost ensures a conspiratorial populace as they are oppressed.

Comparing it to an oppressed populace is a strawman.

My original statement was "Free people are free to conspire". That is true.

I never said it equals anything or that it leads to more or less conspiracies.



posted on Apr, 5 2015 @ 01:32 PM
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originally posted by: daskakik
Either.


The line I quoted from the Original Post plus his total absence from the thread make it obvious this was a toll post.

And I do not think utopia is achievable regardless of the political ideology applied as there will always be people who try to skirt or take advantage of the system.



My original statement was "Free people are free to conspire". That is true.

I never said it equals anything or that it leads to more or less conspiracies.


And what is the opposite of 'free people are free top conspire'? 'Oppressed people are unable to conspire'? The inference of your meaning is rather clear when the converse is articulated.



posted on Apr, 5 2015 @ 01:49 PM
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originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
And I do not think utopia is achievable regardless of the political ideology applied as there will always be people who try to skirt or take advantage of the system.

So you agree with me and the OP.


And what is the opposite of 'free people are free top conspire'? 'Oppressed people are unable to conspire'? The inference of your meaning is rather clear when the converse is articulated.

That is your doing because what I meant was:


I do not think utopia is achievable regardless of the political ideology applied as there will always be people who try to skirt or take advantage of the system.


Look familiar?

And since "Free people are free to conspire", the above is possible. I'm not saying the opposite, it is a statement that stands on its own.



posted on Apr, 5 2015 @ 01:57 PM
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originally posted by: daskakik
So you agree with me and the OP.


There is nothing to agree with, there are no utopias, Libertarian or otherwise, the thread was a straw man troll effort.


And since "Free people are free to conspire", the above is possible. I'm not saying the opposite, it is a statement that stands on its own.


It does not matter whether you 'say the opposite', it still exists. If you feel free people are free to conspire then what are oppressed people free to do?



posted on Apr, 5 2015 @ 02:03 PM
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originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
There is nothing to agree with, there are no utopias, Libertarian or otherwise, the thread was a straw man troll effort.

OP says that there are no libertarian utopias, you say there are no utopias and that is not agreeing?


It does not matter whether you 'say the opposite', it still exists. If you feel free people are free to conspire then what are oppressed people free to do?

You are just being obtuse. I'm not talking about oppressed people, you keep bring them up to try and put the words in my mouth.

What ever the state of oppressed people, it doesn't change the fact that free people are free to conspire, and they often act in the way you stated above. You can't even refute that because they are your own words.


edit on 5-4-2015 by daskakik because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 5 2015 @ 02:09 PM
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originally posted by: daskakik

OP says that there are no libertarian utopias, you say there are no utopias and that is not agreement?


The Original Poster said 'So where are the conservative and libertarian utopias?' There are no utopias, period, anywhere on the planet. He could have said, 'show me the magical unicorn forest'. It was a straw man.


You are just being obtuse. I'm not talking about oppressed people, you keep bring them up to try and put the words in my mouth.


Then what is the opposite of your statement? What are unfree people capable of doing?


What ever the state of oppressed people, it doesn't change the fact that free people are free to conspire, and they often act in the way you stated above. You can't even refute that because they are your own words.


Taking advantage of the system is not 'conspiring' and this activity takes place in all political systems.




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