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So where are the conservative and libertarian utopias?

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posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 09:48 AM
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I keep hearing conservatives and libertarians on this forum constantly complain about progressives and liberals, and how they want to take this country back and turn it in the right direction again.

What direction would that be exactly?

Back to the 50's? Oh wait those were the days when the top marginal tax rate was 90% Who will create the jobs? :s
Back to the way things were in the 40's? Oh wait those were the days when we had the most progressive president we've ever had FDR who implemented several programs that would serve as a foundation to support the massive growth of the middle class in the upcoming decades.
Back to the 20's? 10's? Oh wait..that was right smack in the middle of the progressive era...that gave women the right to vote.

This thread is aimed at conservatives and libertarians...yes I know that they are not alike but they both share the same hatred for liberalism and progressivism.

The fact is unregulated markets lead to all of the wealth funneling to a small number of people, therefore regulation is necessary.

Laws, Government, Regulations and Welfare are crucial to maintain a functioning society. Do you agree with this? If not then why not?

I keep an open mind on everything and I know that a liberal and progressive utopia is just not possible. Just like how a conservative utopia or a libertarian utopia is not possible.

What gets to me though is how far Libertarians and Conservatives want to take things. A few examples are: getting rid of the department of education, getting rid of the FDA, getting rid of the IRS, Letting PUBLIC businesses decide which groups of people to serve and which not to serve. Getting rid of most social safety nets..and I'm sure I could list a couple of more things.

So I ask this, instead of just offering to get rid of these things..why not offer a way to improve them?

Libertarianism is to the Right as to what Communism is to the Left.





posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 09:59 AM
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i'm a protestant, sorta. i have arrived at the conclusion that everyone, including myself, are so in the dark about the things that actually matter, that none of us can inevitably be blamed, even for things we identify, socially, as sins. so as a result, my position on the catholic church is thus: i may not agree with them, but i don't personally hold them accountable, because i don't think anyone actually is, inevitably, accountable.

this can be further explained by considering "time." time is rubbery and circular and dimensionally, is multi-layered, thus, if sin has already been defeated, that applies eternally, both past and present (and future), and nobody is actually guilty of anything. as a result, i don't see the point of societies with death penalties, so a utopia would not contain a death penalty (That's for starters).

a utopia would be more focused on improving quality of life for everyone and not just for 300 people. a utopia would not be fixated on removing undesirables from their population because they would realize, people are often times the result of their environment and dna, and as a result, are not literally to blame for the mess their lives may or may not be in.

a utopia would not hold back or hold down select portions of the population with the intent purpose of using that sector as a battering ram or home grown army of social justice. therefore, social justice in a utopia has to be socially responsible the entire time and not just when it suits their dreams of world domination/political brownie points.

in a utopia, people are considered individuals, not as skin colors, genders, sexual alignments, political parties, bank accounts or religions/or lack thereof. we are not borg. in effect, you can't blame someone today, for the actions of someone who resembles them in some way at any point in history, such as shared religion or shared gender or shared race etc. each person is unique.

a utopia would not have prisons. it would have wellness clinics and medical treatments for people who have emotional or mental disorders. if the person is a murderer, get them proper medical treatment and put them in the hospital till the problem is resolved. and use the best medicine /treatment available. don't just stuff them in a prison with other people who have similar medical problems, and expect the problem to fix itself. it ain't gonna. as a result, a utopia would have the best of everything for everyone. there's no reason not to and plenty of reasons for why that is ideal.


edit on 1-4-2015 by undo because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 10:13 AM
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sorry about the first posting. it was wrong thread response but worked out as a parallel example, just the same.


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posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 10:45 AM
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I guess the conservative or libertarian utopia would be the 1300's

Where the majority of people owned no land and traded in bread and goats,
while small groups of elites lived in castles and traded in gold, land, and servants.

The peasants had freedom
And those who inherited estates told themselves they attained
their wealth through hard work or supreme bloodline


+11 more 
posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 10:48 AM
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a reply to: muse7

You do know before the department of education america was ranked as one of the top education systems in the world right?

Since the department of education the cost to educate one child for one year has now grown to $11,000.


Which is vastly more than was spent before the department of education at a terribly reduced education.

There are 3rd world countries with better public school education than the US.

The rich do not create jobs.

That is a absolute myth the rich use to avoid taxes.

Just like if you tax a business less they will pay more because they will have more money, which is also bs because they will just pocket the extra and not pay more.

Demand creates jobs.

Do you honestly think some rich guy just creates jobs for the hell of it because he has money?

Somebody wants a goods or services, somebody, rich poor middle class will see the demand and fulfill it for profit.

Screw the rich, most jobs are created by middle class small businesses.

What is this new term you have created "public business" ?

Because there is a public sector and a private sector.

The public sector is thegov and or anything paid for by taxes.

The private sector or a private business, is owned and operated by a private individual.

There are no "public businesses".

And yes a private business should be free to refuse to serve anyone for any reason they want.

Probably not smart to refuse to serve blacks or gays or who ever for what ever reason, because it will just cost you money and send everyone to your competitors.

But what ever, it is your business to destroy at your whim.

IRS is the biggest bs racket of all time.

We got by just fine before it and the FED, in fact since then things have gone extremely down hill.

The IRS is the strong arm guys for the banking mob.

The US can print its own money at zero interest.

We used to, so we didn't out of control debt and didn't need the IRS.

Now the US gov borrows money from a privately owned bank the FED, gets the money out of thin air and charges the gov interest on it.

So instead of the gov issuing $1, they borrow $1 and have to pay back $1.06.

So the FED never even has the dollar in the first place but now the gov owes them $1.06.

Hence the need for an income tax and strong arm tactics, just to pay back the debt, which is imaginary in the first place.

In essence they just make you believe you owe them money, and then make you pay it back by force of law.

You know just like the mobs "fire insurance", if you don't pay this imagined insurance for an imagined service, they can't guarantee your business won't burn down tonight.

This is just for staters BTW.

I could go on and on and on.

We need about 1 in 1,000 of the gov workers we currently have.

Most jobs are redundant and done by at least 5 other people.

No matter how crap a gov workers job performance they usually can't be fired, because of public sector unions. And let's just be honest here, the gov doesn't need to be efficient, they don't get their money by efficient work vs profit ratios.

They can just take as from you as they need to pay for it, or simply borrow more at instant debt to the FED.



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 10:52 AM
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originally posted by: HighFive
I guess the conservative or libertarian utopia would be the 1300's

Where the majority of people owned no land and traded in bread and goats,
while small groups of elites lived in castles and traded in gold, land, and servants.

The peasants had freedom
And those who inherited estates told themselves they attained
their wealth through hard work or supreme bloodline





So like the rich tell themselves today?

The time people were actually free was in the western expansion of america.

The frontier fjs had absolute freedom.

But you know got attacked by Indians. Who were also free.



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 10:53 AM
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if we went back to creating products for our own country instead of buying them from other countries, our job market would skyrocket, our economy would skyrocket. but since we are embroiled in this new world order thing, we've decided to use our incredible market potential as a bargaining chip to get other nations on board. thus our trade defecit is off the richter scale bad for americans, but really good for whoever is currently being sweet talked to join the nwo. eventually, though, this is gonna collapse as a bargaining chip as fewer and fewer people have enough money to buy anything that isn't directly related to immediate survival needs (food and shelter)


+7 more 
posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 10:56 AM
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originally posted by: muse7What gets to me though is how far Libertarians and Conservatives want to take things. A few examples are: getting rid of the department of education...


Redundant, it exists at the state level.


...getting rid of the FDA...


The Food and Drug Administration is bloated and inefficient and in need of an overhaul.


...getting rid of the IRS...


How you can even argue against eliminating it is beyond comprehension.


...Letting PUBLIC businesses decide which groups of people to serve and which not to serve.


You should be able to run your business as you see fit and if your business model is bigoted and will eventually run you into the ground it is your money that you are pissing away. Personally, I would not patronize a bigoted business of any type.


Getting rid of most social safety nets..


They are in dire need of reform as the unfunded liabilities are unsustainable.


...and I'm sure I could list a couple of more things.


You could start by not lumping true Libertarians in with Conservatives as I am not even remotely close to the far right. I am fiscally conservative and socially liberal and very much for personal rights and rewarding hard work.



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 11:02 AM
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originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus


You could start by not lumping true Libertarians in with Conservatives as I am not even remotely close to the far right. I am fiscally conservative and socially liberal and very much for personal rights and rewarding hard work.



yep i'm gonna requote from my big post above:

in a utopia, people are considered individuals, not as skin colors, genders, sexual alignments, political parties, bank accounts or religions/or lack thereof. we are not borg. in effect, you can't blame someone today, for the actions of someone who resembles them in some way at any point in history, such as shared religion or shared gender or shared race etc. each person is unique.



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 11:05 AM
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a reply to: muse7



Please watch. Be educated. Deny ignorance.



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 11:12 AM
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I'm still waiting for somebody to show me the perfect country and political system.
One that is as racially and religiously diverse as America.



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 11:13 AM
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originally posted by: undo
if we went back to creating products for our own country instead of buying them from other countries, our job market would skyrocket, our economy would skyrocket. but since we are embroiled in this new world order thing, we've decided to use our incredible market potential as a bargaining chip to get other nations on board. thus our trade defecit is off the richter scale bad for americans, but really good for whoever is currently being sweet talked to join the nwo. eventually, though, this is gonna collapse as a bargaining chip as fewer and fewer people have enough money to buy anything that isn't directly related to immediate survival needs (food and shelter)


That is where we are right now, the breaking point.

1/2 of workers make less than $25,000 a year.

No money no disposable income.

No disposable income no demand for goods and services.

No demand profits fall, which causes the big corps to cut pay and benefits to maintain profits, which means less money less demand, which means corps cut pay and benefits to maintain profits....etc.

This is truly the downward spiral, because of unquenchable human greed.

Which is why welfare has sky rocketed.

The price of everything has doubled or tripled from the 70s but wages for almist all workers have either remained flat or dropped.

So everything costs twice as much but you make the same or less than you used to.

Now add ACA and it ridiculous $6,000 a year before the insurance pays anything and you get the perfect crap storm, where many are forced to pay for insurance they are incapable if using because they couldn't come up with the $6,000 if they had to.

So they are strong armed into paying for a device they can't even actually use, or they get fined on their tax return.

Which is the only way most poor folks can by a car school clothes for their kids a new washing machine etc...

Everything about the current system is retarded.



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 11:17 AM
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a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

I think you and I share a lot in common.

I a fiscally conservative and socially liberal as well.

I can't argue with a single point in your post.



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 11:25 AM
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It seems that the best countries to live in, have a small population and have good social programs, sweden for example, life in canada isint too bad but theres a whole lot of wasted money be it from conservatives or liberals.



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 11:27 AM
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originally posted by: YayMayorBee
a reply to: muse7



Please watch. Be educated. Deny ignorance.



Lol "we're screwed, I'm just going to take this money and go buy drugs for my neighbor"!!!!!!

Omfg I laughed so hard!!


Good video BTW.

Starred.



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 11:31 AM
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a reply to: muse7


There are no utopias. Conservatives really don't sell a utopian idea like the left does anyway. Most of the real drivel about ideal conditions flow out of the left and persist even though they have been proven to fail. "workers of the world unite" is a very comical bunch of trashy drivel. The state owning "the means of production" is another large scale fail drivel. I mean we have case detailed examples of this nonsense failing. Lenin history has show was a dammed fool.

Now as far as free market ideas ect all the finer thinking there has to give way to the realities of fiat currency and the Federal Reserve, credit driven economy ect that has attached itself.



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 11:35 AM
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a reply to: johnwick

it's a vicious cycle, i know. but i don't think it's entirely greed driven. it's creeping marxism, which in on its face, is not entirely bad (although it's got more problems than you can shake a stick at), but when applied to a capitalist nation, is slowly but surely, devastating. like creeping poverty designed to create unrest, designed to topple government, designed to replace government with marxism.
edit on 1-4-2015 by undo because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 11:55 AM
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originally posted by: Logarock
a reply to: muse7


Lenin history has show was a dammed fool.




Exactly dammed fool.. Lol


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posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 11:55 AM
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a reply to: muse7

And the Progressive ideals show exactly just how clouded your viewpoint is.

Libertarians and Conservatives don't espouse upon 'Utopias".

For Libertarians, we want the freedoms as stated in the founding documents. Not bastardized by Progressive views. Not whored out by Fascist.

There is no such thing as a Utopia except maybe heaven.

What we want is freedom. You want control over your fellow man.



posted on Apr, 1 2015 @ 12:13 PM
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originally posted by: undo
a reply to: johnwick

it's a vicious cycle, i know. but i don't think it's entirely greed driven. it's creeping marxism, which in on its face, is not entirely bad (although it's got more problems than you can shake a stick at), but when applied to a capitalist nation, is slowly but surely, devastating. like creeping poverty designed to create unrest, designed to topple government, designed to replace government with marxism.


Oh, you mean like cloward-piven?

Because that is exactly what you described.


I agree there are many factors involved, but most come back to greed in general.

Either for political power or money or both.

The dems want illegals to come in a d get legalised because they are convinced they will vote dem thus giving them a super majority.

The repubs want the illegals here for cheap labor.

The problem economically speaking is, an abundance of cheap labor has pushed wages down and caused a lot if problems for the middle class.

Jobs like construction that used to be the life blood of the middle class now pay less than they did in the 80s.

It is much more involved than just this with NAFTA etc....

As well as tax policy changes and banking regulations, glass steigle specifically but you get what I am thinking.




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