"Tolerance Works Both Ways"

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Metallicus

Just because I don't believe a gay marriage can exist religiously doesn't mean I'm out to stop gays from having what they call marriage. I just don't want to be compelled to participate. To me that's anti-freedom too.

There has to be a compromise in there somewhere that let's business owners who feel like I do keep their livelihood. I'm just not sure where.

what if you owned a coffee shop, and a middle eastern man came in and ordered a cup of coffee, and the waitress came over to you and said she knew him and he was a believer in sharia law, would you throw him out, or tell the waitress to serve him the coffee that he ordered?

a reply to: jimmyx

remember this?

It's not always the Christians
abcnews.go.com...

Muslim Cab Drivers Refuse to Transport Alcohol, and Dogs Jan. 26, 2007 By BARBARA PINTO Commissioners at one of the country's biggest airports are considering punishing Muslim cab drivers who refuse service to passengers possessing alcohol or guide dogs. The cabbies claim transporting those items violates Islamic law. "It is against our faith and the airport is discriminating against Muslim drivers," says a cab driver who would only give his first name, Hashim.

a reply to: Stormdancer777

I didn't know that dogs were taboo for musilims. Is there a reason for this? Not being sarcastic, genuinely curious.

originally posted by: jimmyx

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Metallicus

Just because I don't believe a gay marriage can exist religiously doesn't mean I'm out to stop gays from having what they call marriage. I just don't want to be compelled to participate. To me that's anti-freedom too.

There has to be a compromise in there somewhere that let's business owners who feel like I do keep their livelihood. I'm just not sure where.

what if you owned a coffee shop, and a middle eastern man came in and ordered a cup of coffee, and the waitress came over to you and said she knew him and he was a believer in sharia law, would you throw him out, or tell the waitress to serve him the coffee that he ordered?

Serve him.

Why? Is he asking me to do something under Sharia that my religious beliefs will not allow me to do? I don't believe anything in Christianity has a strong objection to serving coffee to someone.

Now if he demands that I submit to Islam (i.e. convert) before he will buy coffee from me, I would have to ask him to leave. But I hardly think my religion would play much of a role in this. I'm guessing any self-respecting atheist would more or less behave similarly at that point.

here is one


Target shifts Muslims who won’t ring up pork
Department stores in Minn. reassign some cashiers over religious conflict

www.nbcnews.com...


Muslim staff at Marks & Spencer can refuse to sell alcohol and pork
www.telegraph.co.uk...

originally posted by: Autorico
a reply to: Stormdancer777

I didn't know that dogs were taboo for musilims. Is there a reason for this? Not being sarcastic, genuinely curious.

They believe that dogs are dirty, lazy animals or something. It's a pretty powerful insult to them when they say the kaffir (infidels) are lower than dogs.

They like cats. I guess they see cats as industrious and hardworking. It's kind of strange considering the many herding breeds and sight hounds that came out of the ME.

a reply to: Stormdancer777

There was also the guy who got fired from Costco because he wouldn't ring up pork and got angry when they reassigned him to corralling carts instead of electronics. He was trying to sue over religious discrimination.

a reply to: Autorico

Dogs can be kept only in certain circumstances. Angels will not enter a house in which a dog is kept.It was said by the Prophet (pbuh), "Whoever keeps a dog, a portion of his good deeds will be deducted every day, except a dog for farming or herding livestock"Muslims do not dislike dogs, but they are generally regarded as impure and cannot be kept in the house, where prayers are also done.

a reply to: Stormdancer777

That's it!

I think the general idea is that animals are to be kept for industrious reasons and not pure pleasure and an animal should be earning its keep in one way or another.

a reply to: Stormdancer777

Thanks for the info

a reply to: jimmyx

Hell, you know what?

If the waitress came over to me and told me that there were two men (or two women) at the table and they were (ZOMG) married, they'd still get their coffee too. You know why? ... because this isn't about WHO they are or WHAT they are. It's about what they want me to participate in.

If they came and asked me to cater coffee at their wedding ... THEN I would have an issue. It would an act I would personally feel is a sin for ME to participate in as I don't believe such a thing can exist and they are doing sacrilege and asking me to participate in it for money.

Thankfully, no one gets coffee shops to cater their weddings, so I ought to be pretty safe.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: InTheLight'

Only if you ask the person to somehow participate in your marriage.

In the florist case, she had been serving the gay customer for years. What she objected to was participating in the wedding by arranging the flowers which she felt was her endorsing the participating in the ceremony which she felt was sacrilegious.

It's not about someone being gay. It's about asking us to take part in something we don't believe in that we feel violated our beliefs and then asking us to accept payment for it. "Here sin for me and then take payment for sinning."

In situations like this, Christians should follow their own messiah and ask "what would Jesus do?"

He'd arrange the flowers.

a reply to: ketsuko

But if this florist lady knew the customer was gay and had served him for years, then she might have assumed that it was for a gay wedding, even if he didn't mention it.

What if a loud-mouth friend of theirs happened to be in the shop and said "Congratulations, you and Rufus are gonna be so happy together!"?

Or a sudden phone call "Marlin, if your mom can't accept you taking my last name, then she's not invited!" etc etc

I am totally with you on not wanting to know or care about anyone's personal business, but, sometimes life and little verbal slip ups happen, or business-related questions or whatever....how many logistics should a person have to deal with to order a simple flower arrangement?


And I've often wondered, how much would God consider doing a flower arrangement or a cake for a gay wedding to be participating in it? I ask because I was a church-going boy from birth til about 21 (I even played in the Salvation Army brass band for 11 years of that, twice a Sunday...oi haha), and some of our 'local officers' couldn't be at every service because of shift-work at our local mines. I asked a few different people about the whole "keeping the Sabbath holy" thing and they basically said (and maybe quoted scripture, I can't remember) that if your work requires you to work on Sundays, then God allows it...Would there be an adaptation for this rule (if it is a rule haha) when it comes to providing goods and services like we're talking about?

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: InTheLight'

Only if you ask the person to somehow participate in your marriage.

In the florist case, she had been serving the gay customer for years. What she objected to was participating in the wedding by arranging the flowers which she felt was her endorsing the participating in the ceremony which she felt was sacrilegious.

It's not about someone being gay. It's about asking us to take part in something we don't believe in that we feel violated our beliefs and then asking us to accept payment for it. "Here sin for me and then take payment for sinning."

If I was having a 'pretend' celebratory open marriage affair and the same florist was against my choice of lifestyle, that of being an adulterer, and she refused to supply her wares and if she also explained to me her deep religious belief as to her refusal, quite honestly, I really would let it roll off my back and find another florist, because I would know that this deep belief would be beyond my control or influence to change.

a reply to: InTheLight

The thing is, there's nothing TO that belief -- it's simply a "I don't like it" -- there's nothing in their religion about not giving service or helping homosexual people!

These people are using and hiding their intolerance behind their religion. If they were truly Christians, they would follow the example of Jesus. Jesus ate with sinners. Jesus washed sinner's feat. Jesus actually sought out sinners.

Don't pick and choose OT verses when the NT is supposed to supersede it. Don't hide your discrimination under the guise of a religion -- it cheapens it.

a reply to: Pinke

Thanks for your reply. The Wiccan business I was envisioning was something like, Womyn be Yourself Healing Magic Spa, where the ambiance was supposed to be a certain way and thus they were seeking a certain type seen working there. I don't see that as being discriminatory, anymore than a gay bar choosing a young urban gay bartender over an old fat redneck: Businesses hire people based on them being a good fit with the image they are trying project, which may be religious or anything else. That's why its really important that other businesses are given the option to decline, when going along with some one else's values is contrary to their own.

edit: btw, I shouldn't have brought age into that example because that would be discriminatory, but not the redneck vs. urban. Those are lifestyle values, and businesses do tie themselves to values. For instance I like those chocolate bars that give to endangered species because that company is in line with my values, I think we should protect endangered species. So I vote with my dollars for the values I like. Businesses need the ability to refrain from transactions that are contrary to their values so we all can do this: That company should not be compelled to buy from a company tied to habitat destruction for example. The need the right to refuse business that's not in line with their values.

originally posted by: ketsuko
Thankfully, no one gets coffee shops to cater their weddings, so I ought to be pretty safe.

Yea yea. You just wait. Hipsters need to get married eventually.

a reply to: MystikMushroom

It is odd (and mildly infuriating) how people have cherry-picked which parts of scripture are sacrosanct, and which parts are obviously in the "get with the times!" folder.

Owning slaves, public stonings for minor offences--"Oh obviously that has no place in today's society, the book was written thousands of years ago!"

The semantics regarding the word 'marriage'--"That has been the same since Eden and it can never be undone"

Hmm

a reply to: MystikMushroom

Considering that He taught that marriage is between a man and a woman just as God commanded, you might want to rethink that. Jesus did not sin. So even in a world where there was the Roman Empire which was fairly tolerant of gays ... He didn't "moderate" what God originally taught in regards to marriage.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: InTheLight'

Only if you ask the person to somehow participate in your marriage.

In the florist case, she had been serving the gay customer for years. What she objected to was participating in the wedding by arranging the flowers which she felt was her endorsing the participating in the ceremony which she felt was sacrilegious.

It's not about someone being gay. It's about asking us to take part in something we don't believe in that we feel violated our beliefs and then asking us to accept payment for it. "Here sin for me and then take payment for sinning."

In situations like this, Christians should follow their own messiah and ask "what would Jesus do?"

He'd arrange the flowers.

But you don't get to tell people how to believe

That's kind of the point

My opinion or your opinion of how WE think it should be is irrelevant

Jesus for all the talk about tolerance and diversity liberals sure as hell seem to be Intolerant of anyone who doesn't think like they do.

Diversity doesn't mean everyone thinks the same

Edit to add its very telling that everyone is making this about Christians when this law actually covers every faith ...

Again more cherry picking and targeting from the left

Stop hearin what you want to hear and making targets out of people. Your doing exactly what you seem to think this law Is doing

The hypocrisy never ceases to amaze me

Diversity and tolerance my butt. Progressives are the most intolerant bunch in this country