Andreas Lubitz and his State of Mind

I've heard now a few different speculations about Andreas Lubitz and the 'mental illness' he dealt with, but none of the analyses I've read thus far sound to me as plausible or sophisticated enough to help the general public understand how someone could do what he did.

First and foremost, what he did was something that most people in their ordinary state of mind couldn't even fathom doing. That's probably obvious to most of us.

I watched a CNN interview in which a flight trainer simulated the scenario Lubitz was in but couldn't allow himself to 'crash' into the mountains. It was an interesting demonstration - though completely lost on the interviewer and the pilot - on how self-states operate in the human unconscious. In this situation, just as the plane reached closer and closer to the virtual mountain top, the pilot pulled upwards: he couldn't even pretend to let his plane crash - such was the influence of his self-awareness on the meaning of that action.

The issue at the heart of Lubitz action is dissociation. Instead of concentrating upon this mental state on Lubitz body and mind, we've heard stories about his depressiveness or his anxiety - both of which, mind you, were probably present in his personal history, but they do not factor much into the action itself. It takes more than depression to commit an act as grisly as this. It's takes not knowing what you're doing.

The two aspects of dissociation most probably present in Lubitz mind-state was derealization and depersonalization. Undoubtedly, Lubitz must have considered the world around him - the plane, the cockpit, and the open window from which he saw a birds-eye picture of the world before him - as somehow 'unreal'. Derealization is the subjective experience of the objective world as somehow seeming 'fake' and 'unreal'. Depersonalization on the other hand is the same sort of experience but with ones own body. One's hands, one's viscera, ones limbs: all connection between higher-cortical consciousness and the body is 'blocked' and 'dissociated' from conscious awareness. Without a feeling of being 'rooted' in ones body, with affects which one can reflect upon, one is faced with a dreamy sense of self and being in the world. Depersonalization tends to subtend feelings of derealization.

Obviously, though, fatigue and tiredness, probably from his job, played a big part here in allowing his mind to fall into such morbid dissociatio. Anxiety and paranoia as well must have been an additional element to Lubitz deciding upon this action. But in carrying the act out, his other self-states, states in which he likely knew anxiety about the thought of killing himself and others - the presence of an AWARE consciousness which KNOWS the MEANING of his action (and the horrific consequences) on other lives, had likely vanished from his attending mind.

Somehow - probably because of fatigue - a previous fantasy image he had (of killing himself and others by crashing it) took over his mind and possessed his awareness. Other self-states which may have become present (such as an awareness of what he was doing) were as 'locked out' from his mind as the pilot from the cockpit. Imagine, for a moment, the pilot slamming on the door begging Lubitz to open it. Were told that from within the cockpit, all we hear is Lubitz slow breathing - relaxed even! This is the posture of a man who sees the world not from within, but from without: who doesn't feel or experience the screams and wails of the captain and others with fear and anxiety, but is eerily removed from it; from the sounds without; from the meaning of his actions generated within.

A depressive state of mind increases the odds of these sorts of psychotic dissociated enactments from occurring, and it likely that he has had this thought - of killing himself and others - before, since one can imagine that a pilot could experience such morbid thoughts from time to time, particularly if they're in the midst of a depressive episode.

Perhaps the hardest thing for us to tolerate is the fact that this man, in a better state of mind (maybe a more normal one for him) would have been shocked at what he did. Of course, he can't nor can anyone know that outcome. What we're exposed to - is the result. His death and the murder of 148 innocent people with him.

Was he at fault? Certainly. But there's also a strong sense of how tragically preventable this would have been had Airline companies appreciated how vital it is that their pilots be psychologically able to tolerate the stresses that come with flying commercial airplanes.

I asked myself - and others - would it be so bad for pilots to be required to attend psychotherapy sessions monthly or bi-monthly? Besides the general well-being that a responsive other can provide, it would absolutely bring to the forefront any fears and ideations a person may have; and if not, a trained psychoanalyst would be able to discern the presence of a gap where something feared is hidden.

Psychological testing, from the beginning, is not enough, as anyone can fall into a depression. Whats required - and what really should be demanded from the public - is that pilots be in a position to tolerate the stresses that go into their jobs without succumbing to states of mind where they can no longer meta-cognitively 'observe' what they are doing.

a reply to: Astrocyte

I think that there is a certain failure to appreciate a very important thing, where the discussion of Lubitz's state of mind during the fatal descent is concerned.

The reality is that a) no one will ever know the precise mental dysfunction that lead to this crash, and overly speculative discussion on the topic, particularly that undertaken by airline companies and their representatives, in order to come up with solutions to the issues presented, will likely be totally inadequate to preventing these issues being raised again in the future, and b) that in order to understand the mans mental state, one would have to be INTIMATELY familiar with not only suicidal tendencies, but also homicidal tendencies as well.

I personally believe that only someone who has attempted to kill themselves and others in one event, have a hope in merry hell of understanding where the mans head was at. Psychologists can make general case statements, which will give a layman a minimal understanding of the areas of the brain affected, but ONLY an insane person can actually UNDERSTAND the actions taken by Lubitz, or anyone who has ever thought about doing something like he did.

He had a freaking doctor's note to stay home for a few day because he was deemed unfit to do his job. The company never got the note.

The stress from work is taxing sometimes. He complained about it to a stewardess often which confuses me. Why force yourself to go into work when you clearly were given the opportunity to take some time off and relax? Sometimes a few days is all you need to recharge.

The makes me think his mind was preoccupied on things outside of work. Maybe taking a day off and being home was actually worse than being completely stresses out at work. I don't think he realized the gravity of his position as pilot.

So...you want to force a bunch of people who aren't having any issues or problems to go see a shrink, because a few people who share their profession might be having issues or problems?

Wonder how much that'll cause fares to go up

originally posted by: Shamrock6
So...you want to force a bunch of people who aren't having any issues or problems to go see a shrink, because a few people who share their profession might be having issues or problems?

Wonder how much that'll cause fares to go up

Welcome to the world of the psychological interventionism.

The people willing to supplant our peaceful free will happen to control the apparatus.

a reply to: eisegesis

He had a doctor note for an eye problem. Not because he was mentally unfit to do the job.

This entire investigation is a farce from the beginning.

a reply to: Shamrock6

"see a shrink".

I distrust the neat blame package offered to the public via MSM, there are inconsistencies and from experience, it is not unheard of for nefarious practices by covert agencies etc manipulating to their convenience, hence my position on the 'information' from the investigation so far contains a measure of distrust.

That said, even if the entire MSM relayed story was believed and an opinion of Lubitz's mind formulated from there, the fact is there is a lack of required information for making such opinions /judgements as there are many influential factors that should be considered, for example, previous and current diagnoses, was / wasn't medicated /self medicating, influence by third parties etc.

Armchair psychology is speculative, as is making uninformed judgements. The facts are required.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: eisegesis

He had a doctor note for an eye problem. Not because he was mentally unfit to do the job.

This entire investigation is a farce from the beginning.

AMEN to that... the prosecutor, without built up evidence... had already deemed the loner, single, not-too-chipper guy as the focus point.....

anyone else, the Pilot or even navigator, would just not do as a suspect... they were way too stable, normal, sociable, etc. the co-pilot was the patsy even if he was innocent....
that gives the flying public a nod to continue going on air travel with Lufthansa because there was an overlooked bad-apple who fooled the air carrier's stability profile of their professional ranks of trained flight crews

I am not satisified with the consensus.... A. Lubitz may have been a loose cannon but documented evidence, the flight deck sound recordings need to be really researched deeply.... a restive breathing pattern, with no foreboding or anxiety sounds very unusual indeed... Lubitz may have been unconscious and that is the reason for the non-excited breathing & complete silence even as he supposedly dove the aircraft into the mountain side


perhaps he was framed after all

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: eisegesis

He had a doctor note for an eye problem. Not because he was mentally unfit to do the job.

This entire investigation is a farce from the beginning.

He obviously went to the doctors for a reason and was given time off from work.

Why didn't he take the day off? (speculation only)

Looks like just another episode of "jumping to conclusions" starring Joe Media.

a reply to: St Udio

Those recordings are a huge problem. The A320 CVR microphone is in the overhead. There's no way it picks up breathing. And there's no way in hell they know the autopilot was set to 100 feet from the CVR.

a reply to: eisegesis

Same reason I don't unless I'm so sick it's not funny. He had a strong work ethic.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: eisegesis

Same reason I don't unless I'm so sick it's not funny. He had a strong work ethic.

Seriously?

How many other pilots do you know that go against doctors orders because of their strong work ethic?

That's just silly. I pilots vision is his most important sense. He had 149 people he was responsible for. Talk about being selfish and putting everyone at risk.

I guess on the surface, unless there is more frequent or random testing of a company's pilots, we're just going to have to take their word for it that they are fit to fly.



Pilot Vison

I'm finding it worrying that the media is basically implying anyone who feel suicidal or has generalised anxiety disorder (which one outlet at least specifically mentioned) is a homicidal maniac.
Like a lot of people I've had my share of issues and it's painting us all as lunatics, from my personal experience and I believe general consensus these are not tendencies which would normally make someone want to 'take people with them'.
I find it all suspicious anyway, and frankly if Zaph does and I do then something must be up...

a reply to: AgentSmith

The reactionary reporting from MSM is inevitable. The definitions between psychosis and depression being blurred is not a good idea.

Thankfully there is logic from some reports.

www.telegraph.co.uk...

Ive known three people who have choosen to end their own lives. One who was wasting away with cancer and the other two serious mental health issues. One was female two were male. Female was the one with cancer...she decided to overdose herself and was successful in her attempt. One of the males was 13 yr old next door neighbor...sad, sad, day that was. Hung himself in woods behind their house...had a 20 minute window of opportuity to do the act. He too was successful in his actions. Have been told by his parents that he suffered from mental illness issues his entire short lived life.

The third was a grown man with a wife & kid. At first look of this man he was as normal as you & I. Worked with him for several years. Then one day the wife hit him with the divorce papers. I'd say it was 3 maybe 4 months he tried once and failed...second go round was a success. But he took the wife as well......murder suicide they said. In my life I have seen people of healthy minds fall off into the void of being normal when a divorce or beakup takes place. We all know someone who has went off the deep end when a relationship ends....we all know "that person".

REports has said this mans girlfriend broke it off with him the day before this incident. Reports have also said he told her he would do something big one day and all would remember who he was. He was successful at that statement. It would not surprise me if he did'nt text or try to call the ex-girlfriend at the time of the tradgedy....he had 13 minutes. IMHO..she is the one with an inside track on all this. The guilt this man laid upon this ex-girlfriend is probally more than she will be able to bear in the now & near future. She will live with this from an insiders persective...we will all forget this and move on with our lives.....she won't. He killed a large portion of her with his act..she and his family will never be the same..never again. The prison of guilt & shame this man has reaped upon his family and that of his ex-girlfriend is a life long torture sentence of the mind. Not to mention the anger of 149 other families.

His state of mind is one thing, but... how a Cockpit Voice Recorder survives that impact and a Flight Data Recorder does not, is way beyond the scope of my thinking power. I'm wondering if he might've ditched the plane because he knew that something was terribly wrong, such as a bomb being on board.