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Personal emotions sometimes damaging reasoned debate...

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posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 10:43 AM
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OK, I've put this in the rant forum but I'm not really pulling my hair out, or rocking in my chair with wild crazy eyes, it's more of a mini observation.

I've crossed swords with many a member over the years about many different and eclectic subjects, but then happily agreed with the same members about many other things.
I love debate, and I love being corrected where I am wrong, thereby learning new perspectives.
I see that for some folk this appears to be a difficult concept though.
Disagree about say a political or moral issue, then they do not want to engage in a completely different subject - a robust exchange in one forum then has completely damaged any chance of interesting interaction in any other thread. Hated shall we say lol.

I look at internet discussion the same as I do with people at my local pub. There are some things some folk do which I disagree with but we can still find agreement about other issues. Heck if we cut off everyone we had a disagreement about certain specific issues then we'd end up speaking to nobody, or have a stepford wives style of social circles.

There are of course extreme issues and viewpoints which will influence my decision to engage or not with any other human, example rapists and white supremacists are not folk I would wish to hang around with, but anything less important is just different folks different strokes to me.

For the record, if any member has a passionate exchange of views with me about a specific issue in any thread, it will not influence my choice to publicly agree with them in another discussion, or award stars and flags where I actually do agree.

Emotions are great, they make us feel alive, and I'm no robot, but I am able to separate specific issues of disagreement with people when discussing other things, so don't be at all surprised if I back you up in one thread when I'm shooting you down in another.
It is not personal to me. x




posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 10:49 AM
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But this is part of the world we live in. People's emotions and pride in the knowledge they hold can severely damage a debate. The process of debating is to try to learn more, but most people like it when their beliefs are reinforced instead..



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 10:54 AM
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a reply to: rickymouse It is a pity though, and don't get me wrong, I have the same pride issues as anyone else, but I do separate discussion from character assasination.
There's a particular member who I do think is someone who I most definitely wouldn't want a pint with but I have starred the guy and posted supportive comments on the rare occasions we ever agree lol



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 10:56 AM
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Ideology, ego and emotions are intertwined psychologically. Even a perceived threat will elicit an emotional response.

Defense mechanisms vary but the flight or fight response is imo hardwired into our psyche.


allpsych.com...-So



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 11:00 AM
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originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: rickymouse It is a pity though, and don't get me wrong, I have the same pride issues as anyone else, but I do separate discussion from character assasination.
There's a particular member who I do think is someone who I most definitely wouldn't want a pint with but I have starred the guy and posted supportive comments on the rare occasions we ever agree lol



Most people do not have the ability to look at things from the side. They take things personal. I have been trying to figure out what foods can make this happen more, I notice some days I have a harder time controlling my ability to not get personally involved. Sometimes it is other things going on in your life that make us not be able to debate well, like the kids not listening to reason which makes us want to take it out on others. I suppose it is better than kicking the dog or cat which is what many people do. At least my cats think this way.



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 11:07 AM
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Sticks and stones will break my bones
But words will never harm me.

My Grandmother, 1972

She's gone now, Wise woman....

True story.



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 11:08 AM
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a reply to: grainofsand

When I was a manager at a logistics company we had extremely difficult objectives we had to accomplish in a fast paced environment with new obstacles every day. The staff I surrounded myself with were purposely picked to all have very different ideas and personalities.


You will not benefit from only appreciating like minded people. I always believed and said that our diversity was important, for if I believed I was so right all the time I surely wouldn't need anyone else. Should I run into a problem, typically a short think take with the doors closed and the importance of respect, self worth, conviction, and emotional intelligence would quickly find a solution. Unfortunately today's society is a little to focused on individualism in an unhealthy way. A me me me generation sometimes makes adults reflect on emotion rather than open mindedness and logic. Amazing what man can accomplish when we can detach ourselves from our ego and collaborate in healthy but aggressive debate and problem solving.



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 11:11 AM
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a reply to: rickymouse
That's certainly true, a bad mood while posting can often be quite unhelpful, I tend to lurk instead then.
Kick the cat lol, it is a funny imaginary scene, but tragically true for some cats. I could never kick mine, she often sleeps on my back when I'm in bed and if anything keeps me calm when I'm grumpy, stroking a purr machine is soothing for the psyche, well mine anyway.

I bought a sandwich and some Scotch Eggs for a homeless heroin addict last week, the guy didn't recognise me but about 20 years ago I beat him up when I caught him burgling my home. He is an emaciated wreck of a human being now and looks close to death, but I can separate his bad choices from basic humanity for a hungry person.
Same with ATS members who I strongly disagree with about specific issues, doesn't mean we are enemies about everything.



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 11:17 AM
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It makes you wonder how those who let their emotions drive their debate would operate in a pub setting. This sort of online conversation is missing the most important aspects of talk—body language, and beer.

In most debates I've seen between intellectuals, the opponents do go out for a beer afterwords. Maybe that sort of humanity is needed here, as it's difficult to extend an olive branch after ridiculing one's ideas from 1000s of mile away.



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 11:18 AM
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a reply to: SLAYER69 I agree with your Grandmother. My Grandmother instilled the same mantra into me.


originally posted by: CriticalStinker
A me me me generation sometimes makes adults reflect on emotion rather than open mindedness and logic. Amazing what man can accomplish when we can detach ourselves from our ego and collaborate in healthy but aggressive debate and problem solving.
Well put.
I am glad to see that ATS is still a much more rational place than fakebook, twitter, and the comments sections on youtube. Those three are shockingly emotionally inspired rant outlets which make me cringe for the human race sometimes when I lurk there.



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 11:23 AM
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originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
It makes you wonder how those who let their emotions drive their debate would operate in a pub setting. This sort of online conversation is missing the most important aspects of talk—body language, and beer.

In most debates I've seen between intellectuals, the opponents do go out for a beer afterwords. Maybe that sort of humanity is needed here, as it's difficult to extend an olive branch after ridiculing one's ideas from 1000s of mile away.
That is so true!
Some of the anger and emotion on ATS would definitely be tempered in a pub setting or it would be fight central every night. Perhaps that is the real problem, the detachment of anonymity and thousands of miles which enables those who are unfriendly to be unfriendly.
There are plenty of members I'd absolutely love to have a pint with though, including some who I passsionately disagree with sometimes.



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 11:23 AM
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Personal emotions sometimes damaging reasoned debate…

Only if you let it. You have no idea who is on the other end of a debate. Don't make the mistake of becoming too friendly with total strangers you've never met.

This isn't the Pub.



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 11:24 AM
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The thing is people invest so much emotion into their beliefs that they hate them being challenged. Very few of us, me included are prepared to admit we are wrong on any subject we have invested emotions in



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 11:26 AM
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originally posted by: intrptr
You have no idea who is on the other end of a debate. Don't make the mistake of becoming too friendly with total strangers you've never met.
Agreed, and I don't, although I do hold back on being unfriendly as I find that to be a surefire way to ruin debate.



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 11:28 AM
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a reply to: grainofsand

Thank you, but this every forum in this world (and I mean forum in the sense of work environment, social outlet, or and other place of meeting) will have those who do not know how to healthily lean towards logic and reason. Emotion and blind idealism tend to haste emotional response and logical fallacies. And it makes me truly appreciate when I can trade and debate ideas with someone, do so with extreme passion AND respect while keeping reason and sanctity of true productive argument.



That being said watching as the fly on the wall to witness the wrong ways to deal with discussion I imagine hones the correct ways to do it. I guess I still believe in diversity for contrast makes the most beautiful existence on this planet whether it be life or an idea (which are almost alive). Just wish the more extreme spectrums of thinking were the minority in that mix as apposed to critical thought.



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 11:32 AM
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a reply to: woodwardjnr I'm no different at the end of the day, but I can easily separate my disagreement with another person about specific issue A when discussing specific issue B or C.
I wish more of us could.



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 11:40 AM
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a reply to: grainofsand


Agreed, and I don't, although I do hold back on being unfriendly as I find that to be a surefire way to ruin debate.

Thats why they do it.

Some people can't lose for sure, others use it to disrupt a thread or intimidate a poster and drive them away. Kind of flattering if you consider the gate keepers think you're close to the truth and want to shut you up for it.

After you been here a while you get to know who they are generally. If they ridicule or insult you in violation of TnC, hammer down, let staff deal with it.



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 11:41 AM
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Excellent thread!

As others have said, I think it's pride, ego and ideology that get in the way. I think one of the most important things to do on a board like this (or in real life) is to FIND things we can agree on. There are many people here that I vehemently disagree with on certain subjects, but I celebrate when we find something we agree on.

Finding things to argue about is easy, but finding similarities is a treasure.
edit on 3/28/2015 by Benevolent Heretic because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 11:47 AM
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a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

Maybe the only thing in common is passion and conviction and appreciating at least the being across from you lives with purpose. That respect has bounded me with countless though we never saw eye to eye, and we'd pick each other to accomplish something together knowing our contrast was the source of synergy.



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 11:50 AM
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originally posted by: olaru12
Ideology, ego and emotions are intertwined psychologically. Even a perceived threat will elicit an emotional response.

Defense mechanisms vary but the flight or fight response is imo hardwired into our psyche.


allpsych.com...-So


I'm with you on this. What is particularly worrying to be it the fact that 'reasoned discussion' triggers 'defense mechanisms' in so many people. When I was young, in school and starting to work in the world IDEAS were not considered threats to ones identity.

Today, people perceive personal threats were there are none and seem to be blind to actual threats to their own well-being.

This change can be attributed to many changes in our society. Degraded public education is a prime cause. Education co-opted by monied interests focusing on employment skills and lacking in classical studies that benefit society not wealth. The loss of the 'fairness doctrine' and consolidation of public media into the hands of private interests disallows discussion on things of immediate, practical and personal importance. Case in point the TPP (Trans Pacific Partnership) - not discussed, not allowed to be mentioned by owners on public media. You don't hear the spirited debate that this issue deserves. Privately owned public media feeds only an endless stream of ISIS, Russia, them, them, - dominos, dominos, don't pay attention to what's happening in your town (pollution, GMOs, surveillance,etc) what the horror over there - be afraid, don't think.

Sorry for the mini-rant.

Defensive mechanisms drive insanity.



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