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For those argueing whether Russia was promised no NATO expansion......

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posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 12:58 AM
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This is a video I found that is quite interesting,Ex Ambassador Jack Matlock gives a speech on our relations with Russia and how we messed it up,and how to fix it.It is almost an hour and a half,but very interesting information on what was going on when the USSR collapsed. He does specifically state though no contract mentioned it,on 2 occasions we DID promise Russia we would not threaten their position by expanding NATO. It is not all pro Russia either,he simply explains our position at that time and what has happened since.
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edit on 28-3-2015 by Dimithae because: fixed link

edit on 28-3-2015 by Dimithae because: same


www.youtube.com...
edit on 28-3-2015 by Dimithae because: Sorry not working right




posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 01:11 AM
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originally posted by: Dimithae
This is a video I found that is quite interesting,Ex Ambassador Jack Matlock gives a speech on our relations with Russia and how we messed it up,and how to fix it.It is almost an hour and a half,but very interesting information on what was going on when the USSR collapsed. He does specifically state though no contract mentioned it,on 2 occasions we DID promise Russia we would not threaten their position by expanding NATO. It is not all pro Russia either,he simply explains our position at that time and what has happened since.
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www.youtube.com...


If Russia wasnt trying to expand by empire NATO would not expand.

But honestly who can blame eastern Europe?

They just want to be free of Russia.

They know how bad it sucks to be a part if or under its tender mercies and want nothing to do with it.

Hey I know, maybe they can try not treating everyone around them like crap and or constantly invadingbthem to exert their brand of absolute suck on others.

I mean honestly, I would rather live in some mideast or African countries than Russia, that is how bad it is.
edit on 28-3-2015 by johnwick because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 01:26 AM
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They know how bad it sucks to be a part if or under its tender mercies and want nothing to do with it.

Hey I know, maybe they can try not treating everyone around them like crap and or constantly invading them to exert their brand of absolute suck on others.
I mean honestly, I would rather live in some mideast or African countries than Russia, that is how bad it is.


Love it!

I am staring this one! I am going to modify that phrase for use in other posts


You want to exert your brand of absolute suck on others.

I like it. I can use that reply a lot here.

Sorry 2:30 AM, need to go to sleep


edit on 28-3-2015 by infolurker because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 01:29 AM
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a reply to: johnwick

Honestly,there is a lot of info in the video and I would suggest anyone that has any interest in what is going on in Ukraine,Crimea and Russia to watch this video. This is a guy who does know what is going on and why.It was his job to know and he is appalled by what he is seeing right now. He is saying that the whole thing has been badly mishandled,and could have been handled much better. That during Reagan's term,it would have never been done like this,and he tells how they did handle issues that came up. It is well worth the time to watch it.



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 01:47 AM
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originally posted by: infolurker



They know how bad it sucks to be a part if or under its tender mercies and want nothing to do with it.

Hey I know, maybe they can try not treating everyone around them like crap and or constantly invading them to exert their brand of absolute suck on others.
I mean honestly, I would rather live in some mideast or African countries than Russia, that is how bad it is.


Love it!

I am staring this one! I am going to modify that phrase for use in other posts


You want to exert your brand of absolute suck on others.

I like it. I can use that reply a lot here.

Sorry 2:30 AM, need to go to sleep



Lol 1:30 here, had a few beers, about to hit the sack as well.

At least I contributed something of value to the human lexicon today.



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 01:50 AM
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originally posted by: Dimithae
a reply to: johnwick

Honestly,there is a lot of info in the video and I would suggest anyone that has any interest in what is going on in Ukraine,Crimea and Russia to watch this video. This is a guy who does know what is going on and why.It was his job to know and he is appalled by what he is seeing right now. He is saying that the whole thing has been badly mishandled,and could have been handled much better. That during Reagan's term,it would have never been done like this,and he tells how they did handle issues that came up. It is well worth the time to watch it.


I can't absorb the videos message until tomorrow, I have been drinking quite liberally for the last couple hours.

But I agree, Obama as usual has handled this entire situation like crap.

Which is why Putin is so bold.

If we had an actual leader, things would be much different.



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 01:56 AM
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originally posted by: Dimithae
a reply to: johnwick

Honestly,there is a lot of info in the video and I would suggest anyone that has any interest in what is going on in Ukraine,Crimea and Russia to watch this video. This is a guy who does know what is going on and why.It was his job to know and he is appalled by what he is seeing right now. He is saying that the whole thing has been badly mishandled,and could have been handled much better. That during Reagan's term,it would have never been done like this,and he tells how they did handle issues that came up. It is well worth the time to watch it.


All posts in this thread so far are so very true, including the liberal libations.

I will give it a watch now.
edit on 28-3-2015 by greencmp because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 03:18 AM
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The myth of victimhood being nurtured by Russia over alleged guarantees that NATO would not expand are just that - a myth.

Granted, in the collapse of the Soviet Union, and the dissolving of the military Warsaw Pact and the reunification of Germany et al, there may have be discussions about hypotheticals, but there was no written guarantee. No treaty. No accord. No MOU. Nothing.

Russia uses NATOs expansion as a pretext for antagonism and belligerence towards what friendly neighbours they have left. They use the myth as an excuse.

Russia need to ask "why" do all of Russia's ex allies want so much to join the West - the EU and NATO.



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 03:23 AM
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a reply to: paraphi

Watch the video please,he was there and he explains what all happened.
second line



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 03:28 AM
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Let us look at the relashionship between NATO and Russia after the Cold War. So we can put this crap to bed. In 1991 Russia joined NATO's Partnership for Peace (PFP). The first step nations take to join NATO. Russia began joint exercises and signed several more agreements with NATO including the first steps creating the Russia-NATO Council which became official in 2002. In 1997 Russia signed the Founding Act on Mutual Relations, Cooperation and Security with NATO. Stating that they did not see each others as enemies and laying ground for even more cooperation.

In 1998 joined the G7 becoming G8 after being invited by the United States and UK. This was done as a sign of friendship as Russia was no where near the economic level it needed to be. Meanwhile, in 1994 Russia and the EU signed The Partnership and Co-operation Agreement. In 2005 Russia and the EU expanded that cooperation with the Four Common Spaces agreement.

Now when all these agreements were going on, so was NATO expansion. And guess what nation did not ask for any sort of agreements or even broach the subject of NATO expansion, that is right, Russia. And why would it? No NATO forces were being deployed in those nations, NATO slashed its spending and cut its to a 1/4 of what they once were and Russia was a part of NATOs PFP.

Although Russia attitude was still around when talks began on Russia joining NATO came about, Russia envoy said they would not be joining NATO becuase "Great powers don't join coalitions, they create coalitions. Russia considers itself a great power"

Russia second invasion of Georgia began the downward slide in NATO Russia relashions. Russia began to spout anti NATO rhetoric and became more hostile. Most likely because it was looking for some validation it was still a great power.

So Russia had almost 30 years to make a big deal out of NATO expansion and it did not. If Russia thought such a promise existed it chose not to bring up.



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 03:29 AM
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a reply to: johnwick

You watched a one and a half hour video in 10 min, how'd you pull that off?



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 03:30 AM
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a reply to: Dimithae

So, I just watched it with a reasonably open mind though, I will freely admit my anti-Russia bias.

He says that the cold war ended two years before the internal breakup which I find difficult to accept.

He seems to think that the media and public should behave as ambassadors as he does, capitulative.

He is completely wrong about our domestic issues with respect to Obama’s state of the union which is a significant detraction from the legitimacy of his message.

He doesn’t even know what “american exceptionalism” means and he is a former ambassador, that is very damning.

Brings up autism as a comparison for the US congress which is an irrelevant intentional inflammation given the popular fervor on the subject (not that I necessarily disagree with the point).

A reasonable assertion by an attendee that Putin is “the richest thug in the world” which was responded to by the statement that it is not our concern.

He says outright that we should have told Ukraine to sit down and shut up because we won’t help even though the comparison was with Latvia, a NATO ally which Ukraine is not so we had no influence on them.

He makes the same arguments against sanctions (the only non-military response the west has) that we are all familiar with.

He dodges the regime change question by asking whether the devil you know is better than the devil you don’t.

I really didn’t get the new perspective from this that I was expecting, almost nothing that he said was new information and he must have tons of inside information to disclose. He sounded like an ambassador.

And this is all after Obama’s “reset”, who can claim that showing weakness is beneficial to anybody?

The best statement he made in the whole presentation was his implorement to see ourselves as others see us and that advice is well taken.
edit on 28-3-2015 by greencmp because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 03:32 AM
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originally posted by: Dimithae
Watch the video please,he was there and he explains what all happened.


I dis watch the video. He was one of many people involved / observing at the end of the Soviet Union. He was a snapshot over the years. He has a view and opinion, formed with hindsight. What a luxury that is.
edit on 28/3/2015 by paraphi because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 03:35 AM
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a reply to: MrSpad

He does explain how Russia sees things and how we see things in there.He also talks about what the guarantee was and how they worked together. He also explains about Ukraine and their country.



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 04:17 AM
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a reply to: greencmp

So I feel the need to ask at this point, what does American exceptionalism mean TO YOU. How do you feel about it and what does it mean as far as you are concerned? He pointed out that to other countries it means that we feel we are above the laws that are there for all countries. No country wants to deal with someone like that.They may HAVE to,but they don't want to. And in Europe,they have a lot more history than us,so they know to sit back and wait,governments rise and fall,and our time is coming.

We on the other hand,have people here in the US that feel that it means that we can do what we want in other countries and they just have to deal with it.Remember,Hitler also claimed that the Aryan race(true Germans)was exceptional.This is not a really good mindset to have. We are just one country out of 198 in this world. We can do a lot of damage and we have.This is what he was explaining in his talk,he wasn't trying to define what it is really supposed to mean, he was saying as how others perceive it.

As far as being capitulative,are we not supposed to work out problems with other countries? Does it always mean that if we don't get along with someone,they have to die? What kind of foreign policy is that? With all these countries in this world,it is not about MAKING them be the countries that WE want.It is about dealing with their country as it is. This thinking is what has us in the mess we are in now.




A reasonable assertion by an attendee that Putin is “the richest thug in the world” which was responded to by the statement that it is not our concern.


And is it? Is it anyone in Russia's business how much Hilliary Clinton has? No,just like its not our business what their leader has.Us sticking our nose into others business causes a lot of headaches and misunderstandings.

I understand that with your honesty about your bias,you won't see what all he is trying to tell people.That basically American needs to get its nose out of the worlds problems. Every problem is not a nail and we don't need to be a hammer. We are breeding resentment everywhere we go. I do appreciate the time you took to watch the video and comment on it.Thank you



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 05:26 AM
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a reply to: Dimithae

NATO was formed to create allies against Russian aggression and Empire desires. There would BE no NATO if Russia acted like a civilized country and didn't want hegemony over other countries. As Russia acts, NATO responds. When Russia pushes, NATO must hold firm or push back. The only way to deal with a bully. Putin, with his deep set paranoia, is taking his country to places that are bad for Russia. Ruining relations with neighbors and other countries, including ones previously under their thumb with absolutely NO desire to be there again. Spending crucial resources on military equipment instead of a healthy economy and citizens. The average life span of a male Russian has been dropping for years and Putin is not the answer to their country, only the answer to megalomania.



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 05:43 AM
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a reply to: paraphi

Your problem and those like you

Is that you assume Russians are stupid

That they can't see US plans to use NATO as puppets and ultimately destroy Russia, after that they would probably start taking out China

Yeah everyone is stupid while US goes and takes over the world.



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 05:47 AM
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a reply to: MrSpad

Boy you are such a library of information

Too bad I don't believe a word of it, if I wasn't lazy I would dissect and shred your long posts point by point

In another thread some guy finally got pis*ed off and dissected your post point by point

You are wrong completely on 99% of the stuff you post and what I can't fantom is how can seemingly smart guy like you be so heavily biased

Google

Objective
edit on 28-3-2015 by WineAndCheese9 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 05:51 AM
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originally posted by: jaxnmarko
NATO was formed to create allies against Russian aggression and Empire desires. There would BE no NATO if Russia acted like a civilized country and didn't


Is that why NATO has been conquering and destroying countries all over Middle East

Is that why those who belong to NATO got ISIS started

Is that why NATO is doing all these things, because of Russia lol



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 06:33 AM
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NATO is just the convenient boogy man for Russia. It was formed to counter Russian aggression and that's been it's mission until the Soviets fell apart. Putin is just going back to the good old days.

The West sees NATO as completely defensive and will never understand why Russians hate it so much. The truth is they hate it so much because it limits their greatness. NATO protects those little Baltic countries that could so easily be influenced by Russia if NATO just wasn't there. Russia could be huge and powerful again, if only NATO didn't 'encroach' on Russia.

I for one am glad NATO accepted in more Eastern European members. At least some people got protection from what is happening now in Ukraine. What was done to Georgia. What was done to Moldova. I don't care if some 'promise' was made or not. Sign a treaty or it's just pillow talk.

Not being allowed to screw with your neighbors isn't a valid reason to 'dislike' NATO. Sorry.



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