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Where did the White man come from?

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posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 10:56 AM
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a reply to: Spider879

no, it wasnt a random sample off the internet. Opponents said it was incomplete data from the study, not that it was random and unrelated, in fact you just said so as well in your rebuttal. And that later it was identified as being FROM S. Africa. I think you are mistaken. Please link your sources so I can review them. What you said is contrary to known facts.....

The article I linked found 200 unique genetic markers to that haplogroup. They are present everywhere in small portions as far as Tuscan Italy.

We are talking about ORIGIN of it, not spread. The unique genetic markers identified place its ORIGIN with celtic peoples of Proto Europeans.

If you are going to take the opposing view, please at least read that article I linked. It is a peer reviewed and scholarly study. I high'y doubt you read it considering the time stamp of my post and your reply.

sigh....
EDIT TO ADD:
also worth a mention....about incest or hide the salami....His parents were brother and sister. And it was not just his DNA analyzed. They did a 5 generation family tree.


Gad and the team had exciting news for the waiting journalists. After amplifying DNA from every mummy they tested, they had constructed a five-generation family tree. The anonymous KV55 mummy, the team said, was actually Tutankhamun's father, the revolutionary Akhenaten, while the foetuses were most likely his daughters. But the most jaw-dropping revelation was the secret that had felled the 18th Dynasty: Tutankhamun's parents had been siblings.

io9.com...


R1B is present in chad? SO? Are you arguing that R1B is FROM CHAD or central Africa? That would be contrary all known facts. That really is a revisionist perspective and demands evidence.

Also, what is ES? You say Tut and his fam were Es...what is that do you think?



edit on 3 28 2015 by tadaman because: (no reason given)




posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 11:18 AM
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The Golgafrinchans
edit on 113131p://bSaturday2015 by Stormdancer777 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 11:54 AM
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a reply to: tadaman

Tadaman we are in agreement that Rs came from Iberia that's not the contention but it is also a fact that there are large clusters of it in West central Africa,and your link did passed over Africa as the focus was on Europe which is fine but that's not the whole story.


Human Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88: a paternal genetic record of early mid Holocene trans-Saharan connections and the spread of Chadic languages

Abstract
Although human Y chromosomes belonging to haplogroup R1b are quite rare in Africa, being found mainly in Asia and Europe, a group of chromosomes within the paragroup R-P25* are found concentrated in the central-western part of the African continent, where they can be detected at frequencies as high as 95%. Phylogenetic evidence and coalescence time estimates suggest that R-P25* chromosomes (or their phylogenetic ancestor) may have been carried to Africa by an Asia-to-Africa back migration in prehistoric times. Here, we describe six new mutations that define the relationships among the African R-P25* Y chromosomes and between these African chromosomes and earlier reported R-P25 Eurasian sub-lineages. The incorporation of these new mutations into a phylogeny of the R1b haplogroup led to the identification of a new clade (R1b1a or R-V88) encompassing all the African R-P25* and about half of the few European/west Asian R-P25* chromosomes. A worldwide phylogeographic analysis of the R1b haplogroup provided strong support to the Asia-to-Africa back-migration hypothesis. The analysis of the distribution of the R-V88 haplogroup in >1800 males from 69 African populations revealed a striking genetic contiguity between the Chadic-speaking peoples from the central Sahel and several other Afroasiatic-speaking groups from North Africa. The R-V88 coalescence time was estimated at 9200–5600 kya, in the early mid Holocene. We suggest that R-V88 is a paternal genetic record of the proposed mid-Holocene migration of proto-Chadic Afroasiatic speakers through the Central Sahara into the Lake Chad Basin, and geomorphological evidence is consistent with this view.
www.nature.com...


dnatribes.com...


Geographical analysis of the Amarna mummies was performed using their autosomal STR profiles based on 8 tested loci.Results are summarized in Table 1 and illustrated in Figure 1. Maps for individual Amarna mummies are included in Figures 2-8 in the Appendix.

Discussion: Average MLI scores in Table 1 indicate the STR profiles of the Amarna mummies would be most frequent in present day populations of several African regions: including the Southern African (average MLI 326.94), African Great Lakes (average MLI 323.76), and Tropical West African (average MLI 83.74) regions. These regional matches do not necessarily indicate an exclusively African ancestry for the Amarna pharaonic family. However, results indicate these ancient individuals inherited soome alleles that today are more frequent in populations of Africa than in other parts of the world (such as D18S51=19 and D21S11=34).

So where did Dna tribe got the plug in?? from the Hawass numbers.
www.bmj.com...
Revisiting the harem conspiracy and death of Ramesses III: anthropological, forensic, radiological, and genetic study
Earlier I suggested to you to look-up Unknown Man E that's where they dealt with not only Tut's dna but the Ramesides also you may have to down load the study.



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 12:00 PM
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a reply to: Spider879

Well I think that we are still talking about ORIGIN, not spread. Spread would be indicative of origin sure, but considering that the presence of R1B in Africa is a rarity, we can not in good faith infer that it is somehow the origin to it. The concentrations of it are plain as day.

The presence of it in Chad and Cameroon is VERY interesting and deserves exhaustive study. I do not subscribe that it is the origin of that haplogroup. IMO there must have been an isolated cultural exchange between several peoples from various groups of Iberia and Africa that later settled in central Africa and the other groups in northern Iberia.

What we can agree on is that the results of Tuts DNA deserve a second look with next generation techniques. Hopefully by sequencing smaller portions of DNA with more advanced methods this can all be put to rest.

BUT, for the time being, until such work is done, the evidence tells us for all intent and purpose, that Tut and his family were related to proto Europeans.

The Amarna mummies need to be tested in their ENTIRETY.


edit on 3 28 2015 by tadaman because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 12:05 PM
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a reply to: coomba98

I'm not exactly sure where white people came from but I am certain that pale skinned, ginger haired people came from Scotland and it's surrounding Celtic cousin-lands.



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 12:14 PM
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originally posted by: tadaman
a reply to: Spider879

Well I think that we are still talking about ORIGIN, not spread. Spread would be indicative of origin sure, but considering that the presence of R1B in Africa is a rarity, we can not in good faith infer that it is somehow the origin to it. The concentrations of it are plain as day.

The presence of it in Chad and Cameroon is VERY interesting and deserves exhaustive study. I do not subscribe that it is the origin of that haplogroup. IMO there must have been an isolated cultural exchange between several peoples from various groups of Iberia and Africa that later settled in central Africa and the other groups in northern Iberia.

What we can agree on is that the results of Tuts DNA deserve a second look with next generation techniques. Hopefully by sequencing smaller portions of DNA with more advanced methods this can all be put to rest.

BUT, for the time being, until such work is done, the evidence tells us for all intent and purpose, that Tut and his family were related to proto Europeans.

EDIT TO ADD:
Amarna mummies represent a SINGLE cache of mummies. Again, I dont think that we can examine a rarity and say it is representative of the norm.

We need to test ALL MUMMIES.


Yes it does and royal Mummies tend to be more add mixed than the Joe brick layers and Suzie homemakers of Kmt especially through the female line, however most geneticist conclude that the average ancient Kemitian was E1b1 like Obama's Kenyan relatives.



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 12:16 PM
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originally posted by: coomba98
Where did the White man come from?

Africans or Congoid came from Africa;
Asians or Mongoloid came from Asia;
Indians or Malay came from India;
American Indians came from Mesoamerica;
White man or Caucasian came from ???

Just as a sidebar, American Indians came from Mesoamerica; is erroneous.
LABTECH picked it up here...


originally posted by: LABTECH767
Native American's may have many origins including from ancient ice age Europe but the strongest genome is of Asiatic origin and the ancestors whom left this marker in there genes are believed to have crossed the baring straits during the last ice age when a land bridge and a series of close island's made it possible to do so from north eastern asia Siberia to Alaska north western America.

...and we are now looking at some migration into South America from Oceania, but MesoAmerica? No.



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 12:19 PM
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a reply to: Spider879


The only evidence pointing to southern Africa as the genetic origin for the Amaran mummies is the supposed inherited alleles such as D18S51=19 and D21S11=34. This is not conclusive of ancestry....In fact relying on inherited alleles alone to determine ancestry is an outdated practice from the early days of genetics. Today we look for specific and unique genetic markers.

We do have specific and unique genetic markers that we have seen in the Amaran mummies, and they belong to a region far removed from the south of Africa which is western Europe and exclusively to proto Europeans....while it is possible for genetic contributions from African populations to the Amamaran mummies if they originated from proto Europeans, it is highly improbable for them to have inherited those unique genetic markers from celtic peoples if they did in fact originate in South Africa.

The two land masses are not connected as you know....so any genetic contribution would have come later on, and the most isolated from where they were found and lived would be the origin.


edit on 3 28 2015 by tadaman because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 12:39 PM
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a reply to: combatmasterYou are correct in thinking Europe is the origin of Caucasians. As for my family I can trace my roots to Ireland 1345.



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 12:45 PM
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a reply to: tadaman

You are also missing the Great Lakes,which have the highest contribution of all followed by tropical West Africa, which may explain ironically any sorta West Euro dna, through Chadian Cameroonians and north Nigerians, the rest are Horn Africans Laventines and others in minute numbers to Eurasia, heck I am probably a lot more European that the entire Amarna clan put together.
In the end though Tut and fam would have been indistinguishable from your average run of the mill Nile Valley African, physically culturally and linguistically.



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 01:38 PM
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a reply to: Spider879

well you are mistaken there. The physical attributes are irregular for such an ancestry. namely the facial features. Thin nose, the cheekbones and chin are not from such an ancestry. They are in fact similar to European traits. The evidence continues to not support your argument though you insist it does without a logical explanation.

and again, you keep saying the same thing. I already explained that you are basing this all off two sets of alleles. That is at best inconclusive. It is no way an explanation for the strong unique genetic markers that more recent studies have identified that link the dynasty to proto European stock.

What you are saying is akin to arguing that a ford is really a GMC because a single GMC part was found swapped in.

I am not trying to be obtuse, but the strong and yet unexplained evidence is still not supportive of what you say.

linguistically, ???? What? There is a unique aspect to the Amaran cache as far as that. Akkadian and Sumerian cuneiform texts were found there. I dont think you truly appreciate the known facts.

literally everything you just said is off. There would be no long standing debate if it was as clear cut as you say. The thing is alternate explanations are being searched for to counter or rather explain away the more logical and inconvenient facts.


My theory is that the Tartessian or Turdetanian civilizations were older and more prolific than is known and could have possibly been a mother civilization to the Akkadians Phoenicians and others.

It has never been adequately explained how Iberians and other proto Europeans were literate to the degree they were. The iberian scripts were found all over the place, and may have had a more profound influence on other developing cultures that sprang up later.


edit on 3 28 2015 by tadaman because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 01:39 PM
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a reply to: FalcoFan

I AGREE!



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 02:44 PM
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Interesting thread!

I Have thought the same?

The etymology of Caucasian says a lot and I think it begun in the Caucasus mountains and this is where the elites of the time descended from after the great flood.

Interesting how mainstream traces blue eyes back to the Black Sea 10,000 years ago,so this fits well.

I do think there may have been previous 'models' of humans before though and possibly this was the upgrade..I mean downgrade..

What is also striking if you look at genealogical maps of red hair,is that this clearly came from the West of Britain and the British Isles being the heartland of red heads,this seems to have most likely occurred after the final sinking of the Atlantean islands (Appalacia) this is told of in Irish mythology,as the time when the gods landed,or the Tuuatha De Danaan.

I think all the pieces are there to be found and I will read more of this thread for further insight.

The RH negative blood is crucial in this search as well,I'll try and edit in a saved article,but for now here is more insight into the origins of red hair.

www.bibliotecapleyades.net...

ETA-RH negative article:

______beforeitsnews/power-elite/2014/05/the-mystery-of-rh-negative-blood-genetic-origin-unknown-2445596.html?currentSplittedPage=0


edit on 28-3-2015 by EndOfDays77 because: (no reason given)

edit on 28-3-2015 by EndOfDays77 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 02:48 PM
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You guys are not going far enough back. The top scientist on hybrids recently released a long paper on his research into the origins of humans. He is dead serious about this and goes into extreme detail to prove his point. He claims that modern humans are a result of a cross between Chimpanzees and pigs. No he is not joking.

I did not read the whole thing and I don't have a link to it at the moment, but based on what I read, I tend to believe his theory very well could be true. Stranger things have happened. I suspect that the races that came along after that are the result of different mixes of genes that were expressed, resulting in some light skinned like the pig and some dark skinned like the Africans.

Here is the link to the research:

www.macroevolution.net...
edit on 28-3-2015 by SubSea because: add link



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 02:51 PM
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originally posted by: tadaman
a reply to: LABTECH767

Worth a mention.

Basques speak an ergative–absolutive language. I have read that the closest language family to it that we know of is proto saharan.

Does that mean that the Basque originated in the saharan desert? No, just that the last time someone spoke a language like theirs, it was there and was A LONG TIME AGO.

I have said this before, but the results of king Tuts DNA analysis proved without a shadow of a doubt that the dynasty that he hailed from shared a common ancestor with proto Europeans. In other words, King Tut was related to 90% of Irish, 90% of peoples of the UK, 90% of native Iberians, and 70% of the French. Now here is the kicker, there is a 99% probability of genetic relation of the Basque, Northern Spanish and southern French to King Tut.

So let that sink in. Its peer reviewed and though Egyptologists and the government of Egypt tried to hide this fact....it is absolutely true and verified. An international team published the findings after they were tasked with analysing Tuts genetic makeup. They practically had to leave the country in hiding because they had a gag order placed on them. They published it anyways and it is now impossible to deny.

King Tut, who was a descendant of the FOUNDING dynasties of Egypt, was a descendant of proto Europeans.

We have NO IDEA how this can be....

Well, I think I know, but who the hell am I right? LOL...



Interesting and fairly common sense in actuality, the Irish have a strong genetic connection to the North African Berber tribes and in Irish Gaelic a trifern plant is called a Shamrock while in Arabic it is names a Shamrack so the family tree of Gaelic is not indo European.

Remember also ancient trade routes and colonization, we can only wonder what history's were lost when the end of the Punic wars led to the burning of Carthage with it's own library's and ancient history, while they had some unforgivable trait's such as child sacrifice they Carthaginians in many other way's were more advanced than the upstart Romans and used for example a production line technique for building there war galleys, specialist carpenters would produce the same piece over and over again and they would then be taken to specialise assembler ship builders who followed a number marking system to build the ship, the Romans were able to copy this technique and that is how they eventually displaced the much more ancient maritime power but it is obvious that trade links and migration must have occurred from the north African empire, Rome though was a master at wiping out previous glory in order to exalt itself.

Another forgotten fact is that while today we see the Celtic and Gaelic tribes as a bunch of wild men in reality they had a system of Roads, laws, women were equal to men in there society though it was a warrior elite that ruled most Celtic kingdom's.

Trying to fit these pieces into a coherent view of the past is like trying to reconstruct a mountain from the grains of sand on a beach, it is possible but often the missing pieces are replaced by conjecture or opinion and we really do not know enough to arrive at a definitive answer so genetics and linguistics even when they disagree are the best tool's while archaeology and anthropology can fit in some other pieces even when they all disagree with one another as is on occasion true.


Very interesting points, my knowledge on the subject is however seriously dated and was never in the greatest depth.



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 02:52 PM
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a reply to: coomba98

We all came from Africa since then change skin colour depending on how much sun they get. They have gone from dark to light and vice versa. From a science point of view race is a myth. We all come from the same place.


purp



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 03:01 PM
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Yeah I know it sounds wild (the pig thing) but I think what you say is somehow encroaching on the truth..why are they such viable donors to humans? Why are they so intelligent? Why do the Jews and Muslims not eat them? I know it is hard to entertain that idea for many,but the cold hard truth goes well beyond that IMO and I have also seen some pretty wild stuff! I forget the source of this info,perhaps it was dotted around,but I'm sure I also heard that this wild pig crossed with a human=pig! Was developed as a stand in sacrificial replacement for humans? Lol there you have it smh..

a reply to: SubSea



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 03:07 PM
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I have to disagree..I think there was So called ET DNA involved that may possibly be more inherent in certain races and the wide variety we have is due to different hominid genes and possibly varying ET genes well that's it in a nut shell lol..try and check out the link above that I posted about the RH negative factor,it is fascinating and is a scientific mystery (so they say) the link might have to be copied and pasted though as it isn't quite working right.a reply to: purplemer



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 03:17 PM
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a reply to: EndOfDays77

There is no such thing as race we are all of the same speices..




There is not a single biological element unique to any of the groups we call white, black, Asian, Latino, etc. In fact, no matter how hard people try, there has never been a successful scientific way to justify any racial classification, in biology. This is not to say that humans don’t vary biologically, we do, a lot.


www.psychologytoday.com...




“Racism is not only socially divisive, but also scientifically incorrect. We are all descendants of people who lived in Africa recently,” he says. “We are all Africans under the skin.” The kinds of differences that people notice, such as skin pigmentation, limb length, or other adaptations are “basically surface features that have been selected for in the environment. When you peer beneath the surface at the underlying level of genetic variation, we are all much more similar than we appear to be. There are no clear, sharp delineations.”


www.psychologytoday.com...

and without race there is no racism. ponder that for thought...



posted on Mar, 28 2015 @ 03:20 PM
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Interesting thread, OP, and it's nice to see that this topic can be discussed without mot delving into arguments. There are certainly a lot of different theories presented, as well. I have read most of them before, but it's nice to have them collected together for comparison.

Now, are we talking just skin color, or are we also talking hair and eye color? For lighter skim, northern Europe seems to be the origin. It's the lighter hair for which I can't find a good explanation. The only theory I have read anywhere was an attempt to link that to the Trojans, but there wasn't a lot of data in what I read, and it was mostly speculation. Still, I am curious myself. Being blond, very pale (seems to run in the family, except for my mother, who looked had more Amerind skin tones), and green-eyed, I'd love to know where the traits originated, just out of curiosity.

There is a lot of data I am going to have to read up on in this thread, when I have time.

I think the skin tones are mostly a result of the cooler Northern European climate, over many generations. What I have found curious, though, is that there are so man stories of pale-skinned, blond-haired people coming to this or that ancient culture to teach them things. I suspect that there was a lot more ocean travel going on back in very ancient times than is in accepted history. The very ancient remains found in the Americas, from all races, would seem to support this. Then there are the underwater remains that cannot be explained. I suspect we['d all be very surprised at the real complete picture of very ncient history of our planet. So much we don't know!



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