Could It Happen Here? - Pilot Suicide

a reply to: Greathouse

I'm not saying it shouldn't be addressed. But it doesn't require an expensive redesign of every aircraft built.

Putting another crew member in the cockpit when one leaves is a much simpler fix.

a reply to: Zaphod58

I could go for that. Instead of an active crewmember a flight security officer who could tend to multiple problems.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: Greathouse


Putting another crew member in the cockpit when one leaves is a much simpler fix.

I don't think this is a fix, nor do I think it can be 100% fixed or solved. While it is rare, If a pilot is determined to crash a plane, they will find a way to do it regardless if there's 2 people in the cockpit or not. A cockpit is a small confined area with loads of buttons/switches and controls. Create a struggle somehow, for example, and push the other person (or themselves) into the wheel/joystick or whatever it's called and mess up as many controls as possible. Would the plane be unrecoverable? I don't know, but how much time would it take to regain control, if possible. And if the door is locked? If the plane was in some position that gravity would prevent someone from getting in, like on its side or something? Idk.

When a pilot leaves, does the replacement stand? Sit in the pilots chair? Even for a fast bathroom break does the replacement stand or sit? If stand, all the pilot needs to do is put the plane in a steep dive, that would take out the standing person, and anyone else standing on the plane, like the other pilot not in the cockpit. Just let gravity take them out. If sitting, idk, maybe they could get the door open, but still in a steep dive gravity would probably prevent the other pilot from getting back in before a crash so they could attempt to do something about it.

I just think there's too many scenarios to make this 100% preventable.

a reply to: C84K2

That's one of the points I've been making today. If a pilot decides he's going to crash the plane he WILL find a way. Another crew member in the cockpit isn't a perfect fix, but it's better than a total redesign of the cockpit to put a lav in it.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Spot on. I agree it would help as well, especially in the event of a medical emergency or what have you.

I would like give my two cents to this discussion. If you are a passenger here in the US you are as safe as possible. My reasoning is the method by which you become airline pilots. Here in the US the airline industry has the pick of all who apply. Applicants will have a varied background with some civilian and some military backgrounds.

A civilian pilot goes through a licensing process where he pays for all flight hours and training. We are lucky here that the cost of flying is much lower than in Europe. This is why we see so many foreign flight students learning to fly here. They still need to meet minimum flight hour requirements before employment and they must pay for every hour. They require 1500 hours to be employable yet they may not be hired until passing a thorough interview process. This requires a written exam, simulator exam and a face to face interview with a chief pilot.

In the rest of the world there is very little civil aviation and there are very few pilots of any level. Their airlines don't have a pool of thousands of qualified pilot applicant as we do here. This forces airlines to hire a person off the street and train them to fly. This gives you an unknown quality employee compared to the US which has a thousand applicant for every opening.

For nothing other than the time and money require to achieve an airline job most people don't make the grade. I would like to think that we have the cream of the crop here but that's my two cents.

a reply to: buddah6

That's one thing the FAA got right. The training requirements here make a huge difference, for both pilots and mechanics. Look at how many airlines from other parts of the world end up grounded or black listed because of training.

One of the new low cost Indian airlines did an audit, and found a number of their pilots were flying on forged certificates, or had invalid licenses.

a reply to: Zaphod58

No one mentioned a total redesign of the whole cockpit. My point was that they would not be able to leave the cockpit.

You would not need to totally redesigned the cockpit you could put a chemical toilet in there. But I'll stand by what I said. The pilots should not be allowed to leave the cockpit I don't care if they have to crap in a bucket and throw it out the window.


By the way earlier you were claiming it only happens rarely so why should we do anything.

a reply to: Greathouse

The cockpit is barely big enough for two people as it is. The only way too fit a toilet in there is to redesign the back of the cockpit to fit it in there.

And I didn't say do nothing. I don't agree that we need to have toilets in the cockpit so the pilots don't ever have to leave it. Solving the pilot suicide "problem" is a low priority, and has easier things to do besides changing the cockpit.

a reply to: Zaphod58

I guess you haven't seen many portable Chemical toilets lately. Now design of fold up like a suitcase.

I suggest you ask the families of the victims of German wings if it's a low priority.

Hell I even bet they will get triple the settlement that is usually adjudicated after airline fatalities.

It seems to be the only person of the opinion that it is a minor problem is you. I just cannot see how you can stand on the position that 200+ Deaths is a low priority.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Forged license...Don't they sim-ride these pilots?

a reply to: Greathouse

If I'm the only one that thinks it's a low priority then why haven't the airlines and manufacturers taken steps before now to solve it? You seem to think it's a simple enough fix, so why haven't they? If it's such a huge issue then they should have solved it years ago. It's apparently cheap according to you, so cost isn't an issue.

So why are pilots still able to crash a plane if it's such a high priority issue?

short answer - yes it could. and it's impossible to prevent or predict.

a reply to: buddah6

Have you seen how fast they expanded the last ten years? They were just glad to get people that could see lightning and hear thunder in the seats.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Probably because they listen to people in positions of power that sound exactly like you.

a reply to: Greathouse

Now that's funny. You think that they're not going to make changes if it's a major problem? After ONE DC-10 crash that turned out to be because of a bad maintenance procedure, they grounded the fleet during the investigation, and made major changes to how things were done.

After ONE 747 accident where the cargo door opened in flight because of a faulty locking mechanism, they totally redesigned the latching system.

But after five pilot suicides they haven't made a single change because they listen to people that sound like me. Yeah that makes perfect sense.

a reply to: Zaphod58

You forgot to leave out people in positions of power like you. You must not be old enough to remember the huge uproar after Egyptian air flight 990. This was all discussed everyone saying the same answers and making the same statements. The bigwigs in the airlines just let it die down and did nothing, and here you are doing the same thing again.

And I'm sorry you hold human life so low but if there is any loss of human life that may be fixable. The fix should be attempted. No matter what the probabilities of success are. But it is useless arguing with you the self-proclaimed know it all of ATS and airplanes, any poster that engages you you look upon with contempt and your supercilious attitude.


Well let me tell you something smart guy you could learn something from anyone nobody knows it all.

But after five pilot suicides they haven't made a single change because they listen to people that sound like me. Yeah that makes perfect sense.

a reply to: Zaphod58


That would be nine suicide attacks by the way. But I know why you didn't want to mention four of them because they did redesigned the door after those four hijacking/suicides.

I better cease this discussion with you. The last time we had one the majority of my post were removed as off-topic and I got a warning. But your post addressing me stayed up for some reason?

a reply to: Greathouse

I remember that incident perfectly. I remember everything said after it too, including things said by pilots that I knew at the time.

It has nothing to do with having little regard for human life. It has to do with priorities. I don't see something that has killed maybe 500 people in 30 years (and the 9/11 attacks don't count as pilot suicides because they weren't pilots working for the airlines, they were hijackers) as something that should be put as the highest priority to fix.

Just because you think that if one person dies we need to make radical changes doesn't mean everyone does. There is no way to make everything you do short of mandating yay every wears padded suits and never flies. There is no possible way to stop a pilot that is determined to crash the plane. He WILL find a way to do it. If not this flight then the next one. Or the one after that.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Yeah it's only 500 dead. So we might as well just continue to make it as easy for them as possible to commit suicide.