Indiana Gov. Mike Pence signs controversial 'religious freedom' bill

originally posted by: Rocker2013

Do you agree that a business has the right to put "no black people" in their window, yes or no?

I wish some would.


Really.

I'd love to boycott their store and let the free market system drive them to the poor house.

If an owner did that, then they obviously don't need my money.

originally posted by: olaru12

originally posted by: beezzer
a reply to: olaru12



If we cannot respect everyone now, what makes a "law" anymore effective?

Well obviously we can't respect everyone or this BS dumbass law would never have been drafted.

Careful when traveling thru Indiana, amigo!

I avoid Indiana and Idaho.

a reply to: Annee

Who determines who the customer is though? It seems by implication that you are saying that in the case of one group over another -- the State gets to decide who one must associate and engage in private contract with -- which is contrary to the First Amendment.

In areas other than the easily targeted and deeply racist South, Free Market principles all but removed such discrimination that was found before the Government said it shouldn't happen. People will act morally and it may take time -- but as Beezer stated, you cannot regulate morality. People will still drink, still smoke, still engage in paid-for-sex transactions, still discriminate, still murder, still steal -- but hey -- lets tack on another law.

If you haven't picked up on it, I am not for the law -- but I don't think the law says what you think it says. I just think it is redundant and will actually be bad for other reasons. Mainly, more fracking Government in my business.

originally posted by: beezzer

originally posted by: olaru12

originally posted by: beezzer
a reply to: olaru12



If we cannot respect everyone now, what makes a "law" anymore effective?

Well obviously we can't respect everyone or this BS dumbass law would never have been drafted.

Careful when traveling thru Indiana, amigo!

I avoid Indiana and Idaho.

You're always welcome here in the Land of Enchantment, the most color blind place I have ever lived.

originally posted by: beezzer
a reply to: Rocker2013

Is the Christian community being respected by the LGBT community?

In what way are they not?
How many cases are there of LGBT lobbyists proposing bills to prevent Christians from preaching?
Where are all the LGBT spokespeople comparing Christians to child molesters?
How many LGBT campaign groups are organizing boycotts of Christian businesses, simply because they are Christian?
Where are the many LGBT citizens signing petitions to prevent Christians from adopting?
Where are the bills submitted to California demanding the execution of Christians?
How many LGBT businesses are calling up radio shows to say they actively discriminate against anyone wearing a Crucifix?
How many LGBT radio shows are there with constant calls from irate Gay men and Lesbians calling for the right to fire Christians?
Where are all those state laws which actively prevent Christians from having equal rights in society?

a reply to: ownbestenemy

You are wasting my time.

You got prejudices - - don't have a public business.

a reply to: beezzer

Are you okay with LGBT people disrespecting people's religious beliefs?

Who does that?

Name one LGBT business owner that deny service to anyone because of their religious beliefs. Sure some might not like what they believe but they support their right to believe anything and they will still serve them.

originally posted by: Annee
a reply to: ownbestenemy

You are wasting my time.

You got prejudices - - don't have a public business.

Which do I have and which don't you have. We are human, we all have prejudices -- mine is mainly against those who wish to limit a free society by imposing ridiculous laws and legislation (SUCH AS THIS) upon the People.

Here -- I DO NOT LIKE THIS LAW. But hey, I have prejudices. Look in a mirror.

Edit To Add:
You seem to crumble under opposition (that isn't emotionally driven) to your views. That others could possible believe differently than you, but yet, still the same.

a reply to: Rocker2013

So the LBT community is showing respect by not passing idiotic laws?

'Kay.

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: beezzer

Are you okay with LGBT people disrespecting people's religious beliefs?

Who does that?

Name one LGBT business owner that deny service to anyone because of their religious beliefs. Sure some might not like what they believe but they support their right to believe anything and they will still serve them.

So if a member of the LGBT community forced a Muslim or Jewish business owner to do something that went against their religious tenets, that would be okay?

The issue with laws of this stripe, based on the Federal RFRA or superseding it, as does the law in Indiana, is not really limited to discrimination against gays, lesbians, bifolk, trifolk, trans* etc.

The issue is that these laws arbitrarily elevate one group over another. There is no clear-cut, objective measure of what a person's religious beliefs impact or don't impact, or how they are impacted nor not impacted, while living in society with everyone else.

What has worked for 200 + years is that government stays out of religion. In most traditions, for many years up until the 1980's everyone had a reasonable understanding of what "free exercise" meant. You can pray, sing, light candles, attend services, listen to your ministers, talk to others about your faith, etc. Free exercise did not mean (except in some places in the ultra-racist South) that normal folks used their religions to exclude other people from their businesses, or tried to suggest that God wants you to vote a certain way or for a certain party, or that we should cross contaminate our governmental systems with our religious systems and vice-versa.

Classical Americans were more interested in doing business than in making religious statements.

Every motion, every law, every court decision that does anything to further erode the distinct and intentional barriers between religion and government set up by the Founders are one step closer to a loss of liberty for someone somewhere.

If you don't believe that, you really need to study the history of Western Civilization 300 - 1800 CE again.

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: beezzer

Are you okay with LGBT people disrespecting people's religious beliefs?

Who does that?

Name one LGBT business owner that deny service to anyone because of their religious beliefs. Sure some might not like what they believe but they support their right to believe anything and they will still serve them.

Clever tactic really, though false equivalency in practice. Just as a gay man/woman would feel uncomfortable in a "straight" place of business, so would the opposite. Just because no challenges have arisen doesn't mean it doesn't occur.

This would be like we were back in the 60s and said that there is no discrimination against black people because no one is taking it to court!

originally posted by: beezzer

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: beezzer

Are you okay with LGBT people disrespecting people's religious beliefs?

Who does that?

Name one LGBT business owner that deny service to anyone because of their religious beliefs. Sure some might not like what they believe but they support their right to believe anything and they will still serve them.

So if a member of the LGBT community forced a Muslim or Jewish business owner to do something that went against their religious tenets, that would be okay?

Why, why, why - - why does someone always have to throw Muslims and Jews in when they can't win their Christian fight?

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: beezzer

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: beezzer

Are you okay with LGBT people disrespecting people's religious beliefs?

Who does that?

Name one LGBT business owner that deny service to anyone because of their religious beliefs. Sure some might not like what they believe but they support their right to believe anything and they will still serve them.

So if a member of the LGBT community forced a Muslim or Jewish business owner to do something that went against their religious tenets, that would be okay?

Why, why, why - - why does someone always have to throw Muslims and Jews in when they can't win their Christian fight?

Simply respond, that would settle it.

originally posted by: Rocker2013

originally posted by: ownbestenemy

originally posted by: Rocker2013
Respect is about respecting differences too. These "Christians" clearly do not respect others in the way they demand to be respected.

Are you implying that only "Christians" are doing the discriminating?

In this instance, in the USA, where Republicans and Christians have done everything in their power to prevent equality, yes.

I think you should relegate that to just Politicians. All parties have attempted at denying equality. If you believe otherwise, you need a better education.

As far as the "Christians" I agree. They have lobbied hard -- but so has the "secularist". So have the "X" and "Y" and "Z" party. Its called politics and it just might rival the oldest profession known to man as the most deviate and dastardly practice known to man.

a reply to: ownbestenemy

Clever tactic really, though false equivalency in practice. Just as a gay man/woman would feel uncomfortable in a "straight" place of business, so would the opposite. Just because no challenges have arisen doesn't mean it doesn't occur.

There went all your credibility. Gay people are perfectly fine shopping in a "straight" place of business. And as a businessman I don't care.
I want their money, checks, credit cards etc. Money has no sex.

Where do you live anyway?

a reply to: beezzer

So if a member of the LGBT community forced a Muslim or Jewish business owner to do something that went against their religious tenets, that would be okay?

They opened PUBLIC businesses. What does that mean? Yep. They serve EVERYONE.
They opened FULLY KNOWING THE LAW.

In the case of cake baker, if they don't want to bake cakes for gay weddings then don't bake cakes at all for ANYONE!

originally posted by: olaru12
a reply to: ownbestenemy

Clever tactic really, though false equivalency in practice. Just as a gay man/woman would feel uncomfortable in a "straight" place of business, so would the opposite. Just because no challenges have arisen doesn't mean it doesn't occur.

There went all your credibility. Gay people are perfectly fine shopping in a "straight" place of business.

How does that diminish my credibility? Are you saying that gay people are perfectly comfortable in every establishment? All the time? Everywhere?

And edit to add. I will concede that my wording wasn't right. I am not a blanket type of person. It should have read "might" not "would". Accept if you want, that is what I meant obviously by my response above.

One more Edit:
I grew up in Southern California and live in Nevada. I have probably lived more of a life than you but you want to question where I live? Because I have seen it all. Discrimination of black people, white people, "Mexican" looking people, Indians, Native Americans, straight, gay, gay-looking, straight-looking, married, single....I could go on.

The fact that you think we should live in some non-discriminatory bubble where we all get along and everything is okay makes to understand where you are coming from. Here is the kicker though. I saw this discrimination listed above, but in a large majority of the cases, we didn't need a law to correct it. Didn't need Government to step in like some daddy-figure to tell us what to do and what not to do. We worked as a society, as a community.

But question where I live.

Question for the proponents of this Indiana law: how do you know that someone is living a life that your religion doesn't agree with?

It's an honest and real question, and if you don't want to give it some actual thought, please don't bother with some trivial quipping answer.

originally posted by: olaru12
a reply to: ownbestenemy

Clever tactic really, though false equivalency in practice. Just as a gay man/woman would feel uncomfortable in a "straight" place of business, so would the opposite. Just because no challenges have arisen doesn't mean it doesn't occur.

There went all your credibility. Gay people are perfectly fine shopping in a "straight" place of business. And as a businessman I don't care.
I want their money, checks, credit cards etc. Money has no sex.

For sure, the "gayborhoods" are dying out.

The number of Gay Bars that have closed is staggering.