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Torture Begins at the Top

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posted on Dec, 19 2004 @ 08:59 PM
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Originally posted by JimboE
Marg,

You're anti-american, left-wing, bleeding-heart BS is sickening. If america is so bad, why are you still here. Move to canada and take eck with you.
My 2 best friends arent going anywhere


Do you know what they do to trolls here?
Its too horrible for words...




posted on Dec, 19 2004 @ 09:09 PM
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Originally posted by jsobecky
This forum does not belong to only those who agree with you and dg and eck. As soon as someone disagrees with you, they are labelled a troll. Well, too bad. Live with dissenting opinions.



As a matter of fact Jsobecky the coment was not for you, but I can see that been friendly is not in your make over so, I am going to leave you in la-la land.

Perhaps you are not better than those that goes around trashing post if you agree with them, I though you were better than that.

Merry christmas to you too by the way.

And I am very proud to be friends with DG and ECK I wonder if you have any friends at all.



posted on Dec, 19 2004 @ 09:22 PM
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Marge,

Your friends with dg and eck ?? Ha Ha. And what makes you all friends ?? Your anti-american philosopy ?? Thank god people like you are few and far between. Your weak-kneed, spineless america bashing is sickening to all the patriots that have defended america throughout our history. Canada is calling you.



posted on Dec, 19 2004 @ 09:29 PM
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I love you too, Marg.

Some are disgruntled because they can see, though they wont admit it, that we're going dooooown hill, fast, and rather than agree with us, they feel the only way to vent their anger is to snap at us and try to make minced meat out of us...and things will get more heated and passionate as time goes by...This is what Hitlers adoring masses were like, during the time Hitler was woowing and romancing his people....They loved him for protecting them against the "terror" threats, etc. etc... *sigh*

There are none so blind as those who will not see...

Soon the right will have to consult psychiatrists themselves, and have therapy so they can learn to deal with the outside world who will be cursing them and pointing fingers at them.



posted on Dec, 19 2004 @ 09:31 PM
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Tone down the personal rhetoric, everyone.
Instead of directing your rhetorical comments at each other, how about lets get back to the topic itself, k?
Bear this in mind as you continue on the path of your choosing:


2.) You will not behave in an abusive and/or hateful manner, and will not harass, threaten, nor attack anyone.

Terms And Conditions Of Use

The topic is:
Torture Begins at the Top


Thank you for your compliance.



seekerof



posted on Dec, 19 2004 @ 09:47 PM
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DGTempe,

Thank you for advising me I'll soon be seeing a psychiatrist. If you left wing fanatics are so smart, how come you lost the election by such a big margin ( a mandate) !!



posted on Dec, 19 2004 @ 09:52 PM
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Was going to post a snippy reply regarding the opinions of "patriots"
regarding liberals but cooler heads prevailed thanks to the timely intervention of Seekerof
. Back to the topic at hand...

Im sorry but I find the statement that these are just a few "bad apples" commiting these acts ridiculous. I mean this is the army we're talking about here
a top down hierarchal society where they more or less know where you are and what your doing twenty four hours a day. Your telling me that abuse this widespread is happening unnoticed?



posted on Dec, 19 2004 @ 09:53 PM
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Apparently I was wrong about cooler heads prevailing...



posted on Dec, 19 2004 @ 09:55 PM
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Originally posted by marg6043
Merry christmas to you too by the way.

And I am very proud to be friends with DG and ECK I wonder if you have any friends at all.

That's very mean spirited, marg, to wish someone a merry christmas and then to insult them.



Some are disgruntled because they can see, though they wont admit it, that we're going dooooown hill, fast, and rather than agree with us, they feel the only way to vent their anger is to snap at us and try to make minced meat out of us...

Well, dg, you are right. We do see that you are going downhill fast, and believe it or not, we take no personal pleasure from it.

The anger and insults fly both ways in this forum. That is to be expected when more than two human beings interact, however.




posted on Dec, 19 2004 @ 10:00 PM
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Originally posted by boogyman
Im sorry but I find the statement that these are just a few "bad apples" commiting these acts ridiculous. I mean this is the army we're talking about here
a top down hierarchal society where they more or less know where you are and what your doing twenty four hours a day. Your telling me that abuse this widespread is happening unnoticed?

I think you're oversimplifying things here. Donald Rumsfeld has over a million people under his command. Now, a case might be made that someone knows roughly where you are most of the time, but to expect that from the person on top is unrealistic.



posted on Dec, 19 2004 @ 10:01 PM
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as posted by jsobecky
The anger and insults fly both ways in this forum. That is to be expected when more than two human beings interact, however.



And though I would agree with this, jsobecky, lets not let our pride get in the way of stepping back and simply ignoring a direct rhetorical statment or comment. Trust me, I speak from past experiences from both avenues. Been there done that. As we mature in this community, as in other communities, we learn to move on and when enough is enough. It can be a vicious circle, but then again, that is why we have Terms and Conditions of Use.





seekerof



posted on Dec, 19 2004 @ 10:16 PM
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Marg, you said earlier that the government did not anticipate that the abuse would not leak to the media. I am going to tell you wrong, they were prepared for this contingency and perhaps deliberately leaked it to test the waters, so to speak.

They know as long as the collective jingoism of people like Jimbo, Dr Horacid and JSObecky, it will not matter anyway if it is leaked.

I am sure Dr Horacid will like to tell me how abusing unarmed and defenceless prisoners is a "fight"?

Why are you folks even responding to this topic? This topic is about evidence that the US abuse is an institutional process. It is not about Islamic terrorists, Iraqi insurgents or the beheadings. Please, remain on topic. And if you think this abuse is justified, then that is really sad. But at least we will have that clear.



posted on Dec, 19 2004 @ 11:49 PM
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Originally posted by Indigo_Child
Marg, you said earlier that the government did not anticipate that the abuse would not leak to the media. I am going to tell you wrong, they were prepared for this contingency and perhaps deliberately leaked it to test the waters, so to speak.

This society thrives on leaks. The more damage done, even to the innocent, the better, in the eyes of this society.


They know as long as the collective jingoism of people like Jimbo, Dr Horacid and JSObecky, it will not matter anyway if it is leaked.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, Indigo_Child. Are you attributing great influence and power over public opinion to us?

Or does it somehow tie in with your ideas about Indians?

Just because we are not part of the torch-carrying, pitchfork-hurling mob chasing the crazed "monster' up the hill in the middle of the night does not make us wrong.


Why are you folks even responding to this topic?

For the same reasons that you are here.




posted on Dec, 20 2004 @ 04:40 AM
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It is an act of TERROR. To instill fear to gain political ambitions. To control a mass populace through the acts of a small radical few.

As far a democracy goes, I don't care if "democracy" finds its way back to the middle east. Freedom works. Let the people choose, as long as it is "free will" and not controlled by radical "mullahs".


That's not an answer, you just gave me the definition of what terrorism is. Remember, acts of terrorism are commited in advocacy of political motif: what is this motif? If it is fear they want to drive into the hearts of Americans by killing thier fellow Iraqis, why is that? Maybe America should start killing it's own people to drive fear into the hearts of Iraqi terrorists.




Now this is an interesting view of events. Political affiliation? Can you tell me which way al Qaeda leans politically? What is their view on the Euro vs the dollar? What is their currency?

And al Qaeda is angry because we invaded an innocent country? Are you saying that Al Qaedans are Iraqi? Or are you admitting that they were allies of Hussein?


You blew that out of porportion, and manipulated it into utter dogma.

Al -Qeuda was not affiliated with Iraqi officials, this has been proven time after time; if you're going to insinutate they are one and the same, then you better substantiate such spurious claims.

Now, whose talking about Al-Qeuda to begin with? I'll answer your question either way. Al Qaeda enmity against the West, the US and Zionism, beyond a doubt. This is due to Western intervention in Middle Eastern political affairs for the last century, and more importantly the Issue regarding Mecca --though I believe this is blown out of porportion. The modus operandi of Al-Queda is simply to subdue western imperialism and capitalism on the Islamic world; I, personaly, hardly believe it is to utterly destroy the west, this is just propaganda. These people have always stated that the United States government is at fault, if they had wanted to attack the American people, they would have; not bomb government affiliated targets.




There is one very simple reason. Because they do not want us over there. Bin Laden has said as much. What a pompous, self-centered a$$ he is, to think that he speaks for all of the mideast. Yet we are supposed to open our doors to them when they want to live here?



What's your point? You already opened your doors, remember. I could switch Bin Laden with Bush, and turn this on you..



posted on Dec, 20 2004 @ 07:21 AM
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Hey dude, look Iraqi's have been murdering other Iraqi's long before the coalition got involved. Long before even Saddam's sadisim. The sunni, whom were all powerful under Saddam are afraid of revenge by those they tortured. The Shi'a can't wait to get them back either. What is happening now is a Islamo "civil" war.



posted on Dec, 20 2004 @ 07:36 AM
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He could be charged,(for the torture) but there is no court to try him so it would be a waste of time.

Thats came from this months Maxim. "Ask us anythng section."



posted on Dec, 20 2004 @ 08:14 AM
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Originally posted by ZeroDeep


Now this is an interesting view of events. Political affiliation? Can you tell me which way al Qaeda leans politically? What is their view on the Euro vs the dollar? What is their currency?

And al Qaeda is angry because we invaded an innocent country? Are you saying that Al Qaedans are Iraqi? Or are you admitting that they were allies of Hussein?


You blew that out of porportion, and manipulated it into utter dogma.

Al -Qeuda was not affiliated with Iraqi officials, this has been proven time after time; if you're going to insinutate they are one and the same, then you better substantiate such spurious claims.

Affiliated? That's a very loose term. Does supporting them with money equate to affiliation? How about providing them with medical care, to the point of a prosthetic leg?



Now, whose talking about Al-Qeuda to begin with? I'll answer your question either way. Al Qaeda enmity against the West, the US and Zionism, beyond a doubt. This is due to Western intervention in Middle Eastern political affairs for the last century, and more importantly the Issue regarding Mecca --though I believe this is blown out of porportion. The modus operandi of Al-Queda is simply to subdue western imperialism and capitalism on the Islamic world; I, personaly, hardly believe it is to utterly destroy the west, this is just propaganda. These people have always stated that the United States government is at fault, if they had wanted to attack the American people, they would have; not bomb government affiliated targets.

I'm talking about al Qaeda because we are talking about "sawed-off heads", and al Qaeda is mostly responsible for that. Zarqawi and/or his cronies even appeared in videotapes boasting about their horrendous acts.

Now you are talking about "political affiliations", hence my questions. What business does al Qaeda have in Iraq?




There is one very simple reason. Because they do not want us over there. Bin Laden has said as much. What a pompous, self-centered a$$ he is, to think that he speaks for all of the mideast. Yet we are supposed to open our doors to them when they want to live here?


What's your point? You already opened your doors, remember. I could switch Bin Laden with Bush, and turn this on you..


Doing the switch won't work.

The point is that bin Laden doesn't speak for the mideast, but has been the cause of much of the death over there. He's not a politician; he's merely a troublemaker that was disowned by his family and found his niche with a bunch of murderers and thugs. That is why he's so angry at the west - he blames them for being an outcast.



posted on Dec, 20 2004 @ 09:31 AM
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Originally posted by Indigo_Child
Marg, you said earlier that the government did not anticipate that the abuse would not leak to the media. I am going to tell you wrong, they were prepared for this contingency and perhaps deliberately leaked it to test the waters, so to speak.



I will add a littler more, perhaps the leak was to do the cause and effect, a bargain, to get the muslin radicals to come and fight in the, US made Iraqi Battlerfield.

Even when the consequences were going to be more kidnappings and beheadings.

The turth they probably knew that the US population will be outraged of the abuse in the prision scandal, but the blind sense of patriotism were enough to go for it most american will forget our administration anything in the name of "for the good of the nation" and " war on terror"

Remeber when we were fedd these world over and over and over during that time?

Burn a few soldiers and leave the masterminded untoched, like Rumsfeld.

But as usual while we have the "partiotic" ones defending those actions you see the rest of the people looking at it for what is was, a depraved and dirty way to humiliate an ethnic group because they have been tag by our administration as the "enemy"



posted on Dec, 20 2004 @ 02:26 PM
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I think part of the problem is, your average Joe thinks Iraq has something to do with 9/11 and probably figures they deserve to be tortured.

Ya know, I don't care what someone did, how bad it was. Torture is not acceptable. Execution if you're guilty, that's fine, but not torture. There is something in the Constitution about "cruel and unusual punishment." Yeah, I know, that's over there, but can't Americans take what they believe in (or should believe it) and apply it to when they're Over There?

I believed the lie that was told and initially supported the war. Then I woke up.



posted on Dec, 20 2004 @ 06:02 PM
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Originally posted by Amethyst
I think part of the problem is, your average Joe thinks Iraq has something to do with 9/11 and probably figures they deserve to be tortured.

Ya know, I don't care what someone did, how bad it was. Torture is not acceptable. Execution if you're guilty, that's fine, but not torture. There is something in the Constitution about "cruel and unusual punishment." Yeah, I know, that's over there, but can't Americans take what they believe in (or should believe it) and apply it to when they're Over There?

I believed the lie that was told and initially supported the war. Then I woke up.
Under this government anything goes- Unless you're extremely young, people realize that this is another world completely and what was done with diplomacy and tact before, now its done with brutal barbaric force- they are barbaric? we are more so than them.
Its just mindbogling wouldnt you say?



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