Torture Begins at the Top

Ok JimboE i have not seen any real imput form you on this thread so far,
If you have something to add other than nit picking other members then please do so, otherwise please do not,

Now on the topic at hand

Asala

Move? This isnt how it works.

Either with us or against us? This is the Bush mentality.

We are still able to post our views and opinions in this country, and like a tv station, one simple flip and poofff...you're somewhere else where you can be happy and not have to put up with people like us.

Both the UK and US governments, at the highest levels, knew about the abuse for a long time.

From May:

www.sundayherald.com...

Despite Bush attempting to portray himself as ill-informed of the true extent of the abuse and torture, the White House has been fully aware for the past year of the violations of the Geneva Convention committed by its personnel in Iraq.

Since April 2003, US authorities in Baghdad have got monthly reports from the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC).

A senior source at the ICRC said: �It doesn�t matter which report it was, we had been telling the US and UK authorities in Baghdad for over a year about the scale of this [abuse and torture] problem. They had been given 10 or more reports. All detailed the same findings. They knew this had been going on for a year.�

Teresa Richardson, of Amnesty, said: �We have been delivering reports on these violations to the US authorities since the period between 9/11 and the beginning of the Iraq war. The abuse and torture, in Afghanistan, goes back two years.�

Bit more detail in this piece:

www.sundayherald.com...

Rumsfeld knew about the torture of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib. So did the US governor in Iraq, Paul Bremer. Even the British Ministry of Defence knew. Can we really believe that Bush and Blair didn�t?

From the Amnesty International site:

news.amnesty.org...

In an open letter to US President George W. Bush today, Amnesty International said that abuses allegedly committed by US agents in the Abu Ghraib facility in Baghdad were war crimes and called on the administration to fully investigate them to ensure that there is no impunity for anyone found responsible regardless of position or rank.

Amnesty International said that it has documented a pattern of abuse by US agents against detainees, including in Iraq and Afghanistan, stretching back over the past two years.

Despite claims this week by Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld to be "stunned" by abuses in Abu Ghraib, and that these were an "exception" and "not a pattern or practice", Amnesty International has presented consistent allegations of brutality and cruelty by US agents against detainees at the highest levels of the US Government, including the White House, the Department of Defense, and the State Department for the past two years.

[edit on 19-12-2004 by kegs]

I don't for a moment believe that the White House or anyone close to it would have orchestrated the prisoner abuse at the Iraqi prison (its quite an exaggeration to call it torture). However, it should not have happened. Although generally a supporter of the Bush government, one of my disappointments was that Rumsfeld should have been let go. It would have been a good gesture by the US over the issue, it would have shown that the buck does stop somewhere (its very unclear now where or if it does), and frankly, based on a number of recent events, I think the US could do a lot better in a Secretary of Defence.

Kegs, you mean its not just Rense.com saying this??? Be still my heart...

I'm in shock

Ok Kids, it is important to remember who the free world is fighting here. Islamo-terrorist that think its cool to saw human heads off on video. They also like to strap bombs onto usually very young humans and murder still other humans. They would kill each of you if give the chance in the name of a pagan god name "allah". These are very vile subhuman animals.

Originally posted by AlexofSkye
I don't for a moment believe that the White House or anyone close to it would have orchestrated the prisoner abuse at the Iraqi prison (its quite an exaggeration to call it torture). However, it should not have happened. Although generally a supporter of the Bush government, one of my disappointments was that Rumsfeld should have been let go. It would have been a good gesture by the US over the issue, it would have shown that the buck does stop somewhere (its very unclear now where or if it does), and frankly, based on a number of recent events, I think the US could do a lot better in a Secretary of Defence.

I agree Alex. I believe if Rumsfeld had been let go, it would've shown
more responsibility from this administration. A willingness to make
things right and to assign blame where it belongs.
As it is with Rumsfeld not being held accountable, it makes Bush look
bad too in my eyes.

Ok Kids, it is important to remember who the free world is fighting here. Islamo-terrorist that think its cool to saw human heads off on video. They also like to strap bombs onto usually very young humans and murder still other humans. They would kill each of you if give the chance in the name of a pagan god name "allah". These are very vile subhuman animals.

Of all of that, which was fact? You just spouted some subjective dogma. Remember, America ebetted Saddam for decades while he was commiting these acts of war against innocents.

These Islamo-terrorists are not commiting these acts for the pure pleasure, they have been causualy nessicitated too; if America had not invaded an innocent country, this would not have occured. If America had not been overcome by it's greed for power and money, these people would have not have had thier lands molested by western capitalism and imperialism. Nobody went thier to free them, America went thier to turn the Euro back to the Dollar as a currency for Opec, and install another puppet government so they can have a better stangle hold in that region of the world.

And, if they wanted to kill us, they would have by now. Stop talking crap. Nobody is being killed in the name of Al-ilah, people are being killed becuase of thier political affiliations.

Deep

[edit on 19-12-2004 by ZeroDeep]

How can you defend sawing humand heads off? How can you defend suicide bombers? You are being intellectually dishonest here. Let's put poor old Saddam back in power, is that what you want?

Yo Deep

How can you defend sawing humand heads off? How can you defend suicide bombers? You are being intellectually dishonest here. Let's put poor old Saddam back in power, is that what you want?

How can you have such a singular perspective of events unfolding in the Middle East? Have you ever sat back and thought as to WHY these people have 'sawed' off heads --only a few, mind you. You're too ambigious with your claims. There are many insurgencies and terrorists groups that have been ebetted by this illegal war, which ones are you condemning?

There is a reason for all these acts of violence, you know.

Deep

Originally posted by DrHoracid
Ok Kids, it is important to remember who the free world is fighting here. Islamo-terrorist that think its cool to saw human heads off on video. of a

Well DrHoracid, let not be to hasty at finger pointing after all we are the "civilized" people and they are the "the third world" uncivilized one that does not know anything about freedom and democracy, that is why we are teaching them how is done. Right.

So civilized people like us are not supposed to do abuses on others, we "know better"

And when it comes from our officials in the government chain command its worst because they are supposed to be much better than us after all they are our leaders. Right?

And for the "pagan god" well lets not forget the "Christian god" humble beginnings too.

Deep, I am saddened buy yuor defense of these acts. I thought you were better than that. There is NO reason to saw someones head off. "Only a few" is troubleing too.

Deep, I am saddened buy yuor defense of these acts. I thought you were better than that. There is NO reason to saw someones head off. "Only a few" is troubleing too.

And? You have not given me anything to work with otherwise. You live in a black and white world; Terrorists kill for spontaneous reasons, and the West is adamant in bringing them 'freedom, liberty, and deMOCKracy.'

You still have not answered my qustion. Can you alteast give me a reason as to why these people are killing, and strapping bombs to thier chests in the name of Al-ilah. There must be a reason, now what is that reason other than your spurious claims?

Deep

Originally posted by DrHoracid
Deep, I am saddened buy yuor defense of these acts. I thought you were better than that. There is NO reason to saw someones head off. "Only a few" is troubleing too.

Oh please, DrHracid I have never said that I agree with "taking heads off" actually I condemn those horrible actions, just like any other good American, but I also condemn the acts or our own in the prision scandal and in afghanistan.

Remember we are better than that.

It is an act of TERROR. To instill fear to gain political ambitions. To control a mass populace through the acts of a small radical few.

As far a democracy goes, I don't care if "democracy" finds its way back to the middle east. Freedom works. Let the people choose, as long as it is "free will" and not controlled by radical "mullahs".

Originally posted by marg6043

Originally posted by DrHoracid
Deep, I am saddened buy yuor defense of these acts. I thought you were better than that. There is NO reason to saw someones head off. "Only a few" is troubleing too.

Oh please, DrHracid I have never said that I agree with "taking heads off" actually I condemn those horrible actions, just like any other good American, but I also condemn the acts or our own in the prision scandal and in afghanistan.

Remember we are better than that.

Hey marg
DrHoracid wasn't referring to you...he was responding to ZeroDeep.

Wait your turn, please.

Marg,

You're anti-american, left-wing, bleeding-heart BS is sickening. If america is so bad, why are you still here. Move to canada and take eck with you.

Originally posted by jsobecky
Hey marg
DrHoracid wasn't referring to you...he was responding to ZeroDeep.

Wait your turn, please.

Well thanks for that I did not even saw it, I will wait my turn next time daddy I promised.

By the way I smell a troll around buzzing like a bee.

These Islamo-terrorists are not commiting these acts for the pure pleasure, they have been causualy nessicitated too; if America had not invaded an innocent country, this would not have occured. If America had not been overcome by it's greed for power and money, these people would have not have had thier lands molested by western capitalism and imperialism. Nobody went thier to free them, America went thier to turn the Euro back to the Dollar as a currency for Opec, and install another puppet government so they can have a better stangle hold in that region of the world.

And, if they wanted to kill us, they would have by now. Stop talking crap. Nobody is being killed in the name of Al-ilah, people are being killed becuase of thier political affiliations.

Deep

Now this is an interesting view of events. Political affiliation? Can you tell me which way al Qaeda leans politically? What is their view on the Euro vs the dollar? What is their currency?

And al Qaeda is angry because we invaded an innocent country? Are you saying that Al Qaedans are Iraqi? Or are you admitting that they were allies of Hussein?

Originally posted by ZeroDeep

Deep, I am saddened buy yuor defense of these acts. I thought you were better than that. There is NO reason to saw someones head off. "Only a few" is troubleing too.

And? You have not given me anything to work with otherwise. You live in a black and white world; Terrorists kill for spontaneous reasons, and the West is adamant in bringing them 'freedom, liberty, and deMOCKracy.'

You still have not answered my qustion. Can you alteast give me a reason as to why these people are killing, and strapping bombs to thier chests in the name of Al-ilah. There must be a reason, now what is that reason other than your spurious claims?

Deep

There is one very simple reason. Because they do not want us over there. Bin Laden has said as much. What a pompous, self-centered a$$ he is, to think that he speaks for all of the mideast. Yet we are supposed to open our doors to them when they want to live here?

Originally posted by marg6043

Originally posted by jsobecky
Hey marg
DrHoracid wasn't referring to you...he was responding to ZeroDeep.

Wait your turn, please.

Well thanks for that I did not even saw it, I will wait my turn next time daddy I promised.

By the way I smell a troll around buzzing like a bee.

This forum does not belong to only those who agree with you and dg and eck. As soon as someone disagrees with you, they are labelled a troll. Well, too bad. Live with dissenting opinions.