Where do you draw the line that dictates an individuals life value within our animal kingdom?

originally posted by: ElohimJD
For me God draws the line.

Some animals were created by the Creator for food for mankind (clean meat, cows, chickens, tuna).

Some animals were created by the Creator as companions (pets) for mankind (dogs, cats, horses).

Some animals were created by the Creator as mortal warnings and can attack mankind if treated improperly (lion, tigers, bears).

Some animals were created by the Creator to serve ecological function in the environments of mankind (bottom feeders, bees, pigs etc).

No animals are "free moral agents" with the ability to think and design reasonable actions, that is a design found only in mankind, they operate via instinct and therefore are not human.

I do not define the animal kingdom in humane terms, it is illogical.

God Bless,

Your post is very logical, and hard to disagree with.

Except if God put cows here for us to raise, butcher and eat, how come they have to feel pain?

That sure isn't fair. If I were designing a reality, the creatures meant to be eaten would be exempt from pain and fear.

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: GoShredAK

my opinion is that a lot of it comes from seeing yourself in whatever animal happens to be subject. i recall a line from "how to train your dragon" when hiccup explains that, in spite of his entire culture being oriented around dragon-slaying, he was unable to kill the dragon because he could see it was as frightened of dying as he was of killing. and i think that reflects the majority of the relationships we have with animals. if you like hurting animals, its because you yourself are hurting. and if you view animals as inferior, its because somewhere deep inside, you have an inferiority complex. someone somewhere made you feel small and you have never forgotten it. ever seen "marmaduke"? i really enjoyed the park scene and whole heartedly agree with the boss dude when he says we can tell a lot about people from how they treat their pets. if you want to know how you will get along with a person, take a look at how good a team they and their pets make.

Your post is very valuable because it has inspired me to be much more patient with our beagle.

She's such an emotional little sweetheart and I'm very impatient with her too often.

Not the person I wanna be, you have made a difference Tzar, that's pretty cool.

Um ya you do ! Dora craves your attention I read somewhere that if you give your pet (dog , cat ) love and affection at least 20 min a day it boosts their natural endorphins which in turn produces ours creating a symbiotic relationship . So show your beagle love goshredak!

a reply to: GoShredAK

originally posted by: Elementalist
The simple answer is; humans are f*ed.

They have expansive minds, within tiny bodies, thst they can hardly take control of (the body/beast).

This species we are of; have a sense of hierarchy, thirst for control, and naturally competitive with each other and other species who offer challenge.

I belive humans were put here to be caretakers and experience harmony and abundance with the natural order of Earth.

But our free will mixed with expansive minds and mental levels of heirarchy have caused more chaos then ever imagined. Brining death and extinction to much of creation's beings.

We are the strangest species the world over; not because of what we look like or how we go about culturally.

But because what goes on inside of our minds is so parallel to harmony and balance, there is no common foundation for us to exist in such harmonically balanced states with creation.

So we kill. Rape. Slaughter. Destroy. Then we make up more bull# in our MINDS to justify what is natural and morally WRONG!

We have went from caretakers of natural order, to chaotic barbarians that are full of # justifiers. As well as the passive-watch-chaos and do nothing humans, who are equally at fault.

Awesome post Element, I truly enjoy your contributions here on ATS, I've simply exhausted my mental ATSing energy, but I wanted you to know I've been starring you ever since you showed up and appreciate your presence here

Peace and Love......

What about the gang raping, violent, druggy dolphins?

Those who think bullying any porpoise they can find alone is great fun, especially if female and they can get their jollies off and then enjoy passing the puffer fish to have a nice trip afterwards.

Actually nothing immoral about passing the puffer, but the other stuff, yeah, dolphins are really smart, and as such, they're capable of making horrible immoral decisions.

Kind of like some apes that wage war, commit rape, and plot out murder.

Oh and let's not forget Orca are smart enough to know that playing seal volley ball is in fact hurting something else, the most awesome example of natures grand loving nature.

originally posted by: Puppylove
What about the gang raping, violent, druggy dolphins?

Those who think bullying any porpoise they can find alone is great fun, especially if female and they can get their jollies off and then enjoy passing the puffer fish to have a nice trip afterwards.

Actually nothing immoral about passing the puffer, but the other stuff, yeah, dolphins are really smart, and as such, they're capable of making horrible immoral decisions.

Kind of like some apes that wage war, commit rape, and plot out murder.

Oh and let's not forget Orca are smart enough to know that playing seal volley ball is in fact hurting something else, the most awesome example of natures grand loving nature.

My intent was to respond to everybody in order but that was good.

I've read these things before but didn't consider the points earlier.

It seems intelligent beings have the most potential to be completely stupid and cruel........now I'm even more perplexed......freaking jerk dolphins!

Lol, idk anymore, I gotta take a break.

a reply to: Puppylove

Lmfao

Well, that's ruined the majestic beauty of dolphins for me.

In the golden age I mentioned in the OP, not only would we all be traveling via skate or snowboard, we would also all have our own plot of land

Oops, I just realized that the golden age comment I was referring to here was actually a reply I wrote in the recent thread about the georgia guide stones. (a good read by the way)

Totally unrelated, my bad.

originally posted by: Puppylove
What about the gang raping, violent, druggy dolphins?

Those who think bullying any porpoise they can find alone is great fun, especially if female and they can get their jollies off and then enjoy passing the puffer fish to have a nice trip afterwards.

Actually nothing immoral about passing the puffer, but the other stuff, yeah, dolphins are really smart, and as such, they're capable of making horrible immoral decisions.

Kind of like some apes that wage war, commit rape, and plot out murder.

Oh and let's not forget Orca are smart enough to know that playing seal volley ball is in fact hurting something else, the most awesome example of natures grand loving nature.

Exactly! Just watch a cat play with an agonizing mouse for hours- makes it real clear the divide between human and animal cruelty is more in our heads than in nature!

Cruelty is a matter of perception, and perception is a Human thing.

The natural world is full of many levels of what we might consider cruelty.

Where do I draw the line? Depends on how well fed I am I guess. Were I starving, and nearing the point of dying from it, I can guarantee you I would kill and eat an animal I wouldn't consider eating today. Nature is all about survival of the fittest, and mental fitness counts as well. I'm at the top of the food chain in my humble opinion. I have knowledge and tools aided and invented by humankind's great minds to help me take down game bigger and stronger than me. That's just how nature works, and we are part of it.

I would have zero regrets about how I did it, or what kind of animal it was. I survived, it didn't. Case closed.

oh wow

Im a dog lover and consider my dog to be my child, and also my best friend, better than any human. That being said, I hold the value of human lives and the lives of dogs to the same level

#puplife

a reply to: Bluesma

Exactly the difference between man and beast is much less than we like to admit. Man are beasts, we are not separate just different in capabilities. Like a cheetah can sprint faster than us, we can still sprint, same with thought, emotions, logic and reasoning, the only difference is degree. People like to throw the word instincts around a lot but most of the time it's a bunch of BS.

a reply to: GoShredAK

The value of a human life hasn't been agreed upon yet so it'll be a while before there's any traction towards giving an animal's life value. Yeah that's blunt and unfeeling and it's also accurate.

Over in Afghanistan, when citizens are killed by Allied fire we pay their families a couple of thousand dollars. We pay the families of our own military casualties up to a hundred thousand dollars. UK and US pay for transport of bodies and funeral/inquest costs too.

Different values, different contexts - still humans.

Humans are the top of a pyramid when it comes to attributing economic values. Beneath us are the primates with countries like Argentina and Spain and New Zealand giving them personhood under law.

Many countries have banned testing on the primates for ethical reasons even if they've stopped short of giving them specific rights like 'personhood.' Their only current, economic value is what the markets will pay or the costs of keeping them.

It's a start and I'm not alone in believing it's a thin edge of the wedge that will eventually see other species being more protected under law. Elephants could be next on the list...

Isn't it always the way that politics and economics dictate the expression of our innate compassion? Not that long ago, we 'gave' Native Americans their own lands and called them reservations. Nowadays we use political/economic pressure to motivate Third World countries to provide elephants with reserves. No, I'm not equating elephants with Native Americans. I'm pointing out the similarities in the processes of decision-making - it's always economical and political.

Elephants and Native Americans have never been allowed to stand in the way of progress and that's an argument for different thread...

My need to eat and be able to afford it

i don't. i value all life. i let trapped flies out of the window. i pick up spiders and release them into the garden.

i would never knowingly hurt any living creature. life is sacrosanct.

a reply to: GoShredAK

I think that you are absolutely correct! All life is sacred... On the other hand, I think that most humans far overvalue their lives...

This is the one subject im a total hypocrite!

I have great respect for nature and all living things but I love eating meat.
I rationalise this by the fact humans are meat eaters. well we eat just about anything which is why we have
survived for so long.

Im sad by the millions of animal life being slaughtered everyday to feed us, yet I still eat meat.
I think its just the way people in our society are raised. desensitised out of sight out of mind. Until you read an article or watch a new clip.