Which Came First, Man Or The Universe? (Dare to believe!)

a reply to: HD3DSURROUNDSOUND

What is the purpose of your hypothesis ?

The purpose of science is to produce models of reality that are as close as possible to reality. And the end purpose is to enable us to make predictions.

What predictions can your hypothesis produce ?

originally posted by: bobs_uruncle
a reply to: HD3DSURROUNDSOUND

I'll play ;-) Man, just not in this form, but rather consciousness. What's the point in building a virtual reality if you don't have multiple consciousness' to fill it and use it?

Cheers - Dave

Now that is quite interesting. In regard of the thread.

What if the universe is a mental creation of this "creator"? This known universe could be a mental projection of some higher mind, then I can say that man was created first. Like a cartoon, the artist draw the character and then make some story that fits the character.

originally posted by: HD3DSURROUNDSOUND
WARNING offense alert - my hypothesis involves that you accept what I'm saying before I even present it to you, so any of you who can't get past here are free to leave now but for those of you who can, please continue.

Sorry about paraphrasing, but it needed clarification.

I hypotethise that MAN is the crown jewel of ALL creation and man is superior spiritually to even the entire universe. PROOF: look at how well man fits into his environment, its like everything we know is for us.

The theory of evolution clearly explains why we look the way we do. Why do you twist it around to something less logical?

PERFECT CONDITIONS for man. Everything on earth is designed to teach us some sort of spiritual lesson or other. EVERYTHING is SPIRITUAL. I digress.

Nothing is neither designed nor DO teach us spiritual lessons.

How is it possible man can find such a hospitable place in the universe?

What? Man didn't find anything, except in your theory, thus making your question only valid in your own theory and thus making you doubt what you are claiming.
Man exists because it suits to exist in this environment. As do maggots.

My premise is this: God started at the beginning with a man AND then designed the universe FOR US!

If there was a God. For what reason would it do this for "us"? "Us" being a weird thing to say because we didn't even exist before God thought of this bizarre plan.

This would have science looking within for answers and not to the furthest reaches of the impossible to reach universe BUT science does not want to look inside.

Look within what? Science is about observing the observable and putting random thoughts like these aside, because they do not bring any value to the table whatsoever.

Bees, birds, horses, grass, snow, etc. Everything in nature has come out of the first man.

From the rectum as living fecal matter? From the thigh-bone? Rib? Saliva? How did this random thought appear in your head, and why do you see it as something worth pursuing?
And how do you expect your researchers to help you with this thought?

The big bang, the creation of the universe? It all fits for Homo Sapien because it was created for himher.

How did this random thought appear in your head, and why do you see it as something worth pursuing?
And how do you expect your researchers to help you with this thought?

If you look at stars at night IT'S FOR YOU! If you look at flowers, THEYR'E FOR YOU! EVERYTHING IS FOR YOU!

Please give me your money. And everything else you possess. It's for me.

We must learn the right spiritual lessons from the universe because the universe is for us, not us for the universe.

That sentence doesn't mean anything.

The universe didn't make itself and then we happened to be part of the process NO, we have been put into a universe specifically made for US.

Incorrect. The universe was made for Zoth, which the Boman did naturally not approve as he thought it was as much his as it was Zoth's. All that followed this conflict created what is known as Heaven & Hell.

Man came before the universe and at the right time man was put in the universe made for him, in a beautiful garden on a planet called earth and there was left to observe all manor of spiritual things and make choices.

There is a plan for man and another universe created for man even better than this one to which we go if we've had the ONE true secret of the universe revealed to us but again I digress.

Nonsense. See above answer.

a reply to: HD3DSURROUNDSOUND

Text I hypotethise that MAN is the crown jewel of ALL creation and man is superior spiritually to even the entire universe. PROOF: look at how well man fits into his environment, its like everything we know is for us.

Species adapt to the environment...environment does not change to suit particular species.

originally posted by: Chrisfishenstein
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Not to mention, evolution doesn't stop. Humans will evolve into further species given the opportunity (basically if we don't destroy ourselves first).

Prove it.....You are blasting the OP yet you spout theories back as your "proof"? Ha.....You act like you have all the answers with your garbage evolution argument, yet there is absolutely ZERO proof that your little "proof" in all your posts even exists...

Prove evolution? I mean, I can post a bunch of evidence proving evolution, but are you going to consider it? You saying "yet you spout theories back as your "proof"" says that you've already made up your mind. I mean, it looks like I'd have to define what a "theory" is for you first since you seem to think there is no proof behind them.

originally posted by: HD3DSURROUNDSOUND
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Thank you ok let's presume God (creator) made the universe for man ok then what SPIRITUAL lesson does man learn from dolphins specifically. Could it be grace and family and unity and loyalty?

Why are we presuming? Presumptions are hard to let go if proven wrong. It is best not to presume anything then build the evidence from there.

The universe offers spiritual lessons for us. What have we learned.

Here is an example when a female lion takes down a helpless buck for its meal? What do we learn? Or when an unexpected mudslide kills 100s of people unexpectedly what do we learn?

We don't learn anything outside of scientific study when these events happen.

The universe iss phsyical and SPIRITUAL hence the confusion. Can I ask Do you think humanity has learned to be spiritual yet? The evidence suggests otherwise.

We need to look in not out.

Thanks.

Where is your evidence of the spiritual plane? Your reasoning is very abstract and makes too many assumptions then tries to build a workable reality around those assumptions. You demand that I assume god made the universe for man. No. I refuse to make unnecessary assumptions like that. Prove your point without them.

originally posted by: Abednego

originally posted by: bobs_uruncle
a reply to: HD3DSURROUNDSOUND

I'll play ;-) Man, just not in this form, but rather consciousness. What's the point in building a virtual reality if you don't have multiple consciousness' to fill it and use it?

Cheers - Dave

Now that is quite interesting. In regard of the thread.

What if the universe is a mental creation of this "creator"? This known universe could be a mental projection of some higher mind, then I can say that man was created first. Like a cartoon, the artist draw the character and then make some story that fits the character.

I would go more with the "lone wolf" Creator/Programmer with a team. They build a virtual reality that actually is it's own universe, one that is created by the interference patterns of bosons to create matter which appears to us as real, based on the firmware we run. The universe would take very little energy to maintain as it would be a tensor, finite, have a net sum energy of zero and be ~99.9999999999999% free space, all of which we have. Projection of said virtual reality could either be created at the event horizon, meaning the edge of the universe and projected in or it could come through the individual projections of particles, maybe through a different dimension. Or similar to Kaku's ideas on hyperspace (book of the same name) communication ("spooky interaction at a distance," ER/EPR solution or through entanglement via Bose-Einstein Condensates), through some technology unknown to us obviously, like the consciousness tethering. That diaphanous and tenuous link to what we call a soul.

I won't bother getting into vortices, string theory or twistors, it's a little heady, but the virtual reality would be understandable scientifically, to-a-point, to the inmates programmed to seek and understand the physics of the virtual reality. Meaning that to really understand the virtual reality, you would have to be outside of it, looking in. It's difficult for an immersed system to test itself, much like measurements inside gravity waves where your frames of reference change proportionally to the wave, creating zero measured change from inside the wave.

In any event, once the "virtual reality is built, "they" get to populate it with pre-existing consciousness. Where does this consciousness, come from I wonder? I would say a prison, retraining or rehabilitation facility in the "world" where the virtual reality was created or maybe it's just entertainment and we pick who we want to be. How does it work? Well, I would think they would set it up as sort of a 4D movie, it gives lots of "time" but a finite time span as well as predictable outcomes for rehabilitation/retraining purposes or simply fun. The people in this virtual reality that seem to be in control, the rich and powerful, may simply be people who pay whatever is of value in the real reality to experience this virtual reality or maybe it's a bonus for good training/rehab "sessions" and being rich, powerful and evil is just the way the programming works

A "consciousness" is tethered to us, our meat puppet or avatar if you like and we come equipped with a bi-directional communication system (tether/soul?) and a data acquisition/control system called a brain. We also have sensory systems attached for feedback purposes so we (our actual consciousness someplace else) can experience all manner of nice and nasty sh*t, ***as an observer*** only. We ride on a "bus" and have no control over direction or when we get off. We are made to believe we have free will so we will immerse ourselves into the virtual reality with conviction, but there is no free will, because it's like a preset movie on a VHS tape, there can be no change in the plot or the sequence of events. As Shakespeare said, "We are merely actors on a stage." Birth is entry into a new training/rehab scenario and death is the exit point back to reality.

I realize it is very "Matrix-like," fatalistic and a little noir, but I have maintained these ideas since 1978 and nothing else makes sense, for me anyway. What better way to keep inmates/trainees/rehab/etc. consciousness, occupied and chasing their own tails. Just some thoughts on the nature of "reality"...

But my conclusion, this is what is deemed by religion as Hell, we're in it! It's being self-aware and almost being able to feel the presence of a Creator, but just not quite there, that feeling is missing. Probably one of the reasons we are programmed to seek "companionship" physically, because of its lack spiritually.

Cheers - Dave

a reply to: bobs_uruncle


www.abovetopsecret.com...

Feel free to make any comment.

What a neat train of thought!

I have had similar routes, and I feel the conclusion I came upon was that if we DO exist beyond space and time, then we currently exist as little more than an echo of our true selves. Or like leaves on a tree.

Earth is not certainly not perfect for man ,maybe it looks like that from out your window but when you consider 70% of Earth is ocean and another large percentage is desert (including places like Antarctica) and when you consider other factors like all the various different things on earth that can kill us like weather,plants,animals etc then it does not seem like a world designed just for us.

Then when you consider how vast the universe is so vast it's beyond comprehension ,billions and billions of worlds out there ,why was it created when earth and man is the centre of the universe apparently ?

originally posted by: Abednego
a reply to: bobs_uruncle


www.abovetopsecret.com...

Feel free to make any comment.

I read your thread. The difference for me is I see this virtual reality as technology. We are operating within that technology created by a sufficiently advanced species and that their technology is so advanced and alien to us, it seems like magic. Unfortunately, I can't prove this until I am dead and I have no way of letting the rest of you inmates know, unless of course it's in the programming/movie LOL.

I really can't see this as being the projection of a single mind, unless there is seriously advanced technology attached.

Cheers - Dave

I'm just shocked at some of the folk on this thread. I feel like I've entered the Twighlight Zone and gone back in time and having the same discussion as "The World is Flat", "we're the centre of the universe" or "The sun is
Magic". How can anyone seriously even contemplate that man came before the universe. That is the most ludicrous thing I've seen in ATS in ages.

What I do not understand is the mindset against science. If it was not for science we'd not be able to have this discussion on whatever device you are using at the moment. If it was not for science we'd have a life expectancy of about 30-40 years. If it were not for science we'd still be living in the Stone Age.

I don't know if the OP is serious with their opinion but looking at the number of threads they create makes me wonder if another agenda is at work.

ATS used to be about quality of the threads now it's seems to be quantity. Threads ranging from real bad science to gay bashing and bible bashing.

I've seen some great members on ATS leave in the last few years and seeing threads like these makes me realise why.

Shame we cannot have a forum where you have to take an IQ test to enter it......

End of rant!

So humans came first? no galaxies, suns, planets, air, water, something solid to stand on? nothing to eat? nothing to breath? no drinking water? What?

a reply to: HD3DSURROUNDSOUND

Well your problem is using the term homo sapien...

Your idea may well be right, but when you start throwing in terms that stem from the hypothesis of evolution, you will start running into problems.

You have to get into the philosophical idea of what man is. If you come to the conclusion that man IS his or her individual consciousness, then you can move forward with the idea that man was 'created'/existed prior to what we consider the physical matter of the universe.

My hypothesis is that what we consider our consciousness is mostly just the frequency of energy captured by our nervous systems. I didn't come to this notion starting from a spiritual or religious belief but rather from a logical evaluation of the evidences that the current and recent past paradigms couldn't explain or are lacking in explanation for or completely dismiss because of that lack of explanation for.

I had been EXTREMELY enamored with the scientific paradigms until I started delving deeper into them and the logic, or lack of logic rather, behind the conclusions that have been made in regards to them.

Making a disclaimer for those who don't believe in the possibility of a creator won't get you any where on this site, or on the internet in general.

Those people for the most part don't even realize that their beliefs are actually religious in nature and not scientific or logical and they will fight tooth and nail to elicit to you the 'reality' behind their beliefs and the 'fantasy' behind your beliefs.

I expect several to jump on this post and I'll just ignore most of them which is the only thing you can do. Just like the majority of them should just ignore those who won't even hazard a thought about their own religious beliefs like the creation of the universe.

There are few people like me on either side of the spectrum. It's almost kind of the human condition to not question your own beliefs and usually when it does happen, they are just replaced with the opposing viewpoint as opposed to realizing how little anyone really truly knows.

Jaden

Do you mean "Man" as in consciousness? Or do you mean "Man" as in the physical composition? It seems like it would be a tough feat for a "man" compused of oxygen, carbon, nitrogen, hydrogen, etc. to great an infinite, unimaginably large universe composed of all elements currently known.

I only know that as far as I can remember, the universe didn't exist until I was in it. Since I've been alive, people have shown me that the universe was likely around for billions of years before I showed up. However, before I showed up, I wasn't able to perceive and understand the evidence they presented to me, so there was no evidence of the universe existing, and as far as I know it didn't.

The universe doesn't exist without me in it. So it's a kind of symbiotic relationship. When I die, the universe will cease to exist. So enjoy yourselves while you can.

The universe is vast, cold and mostly very, very empty.

Where there is any "stuff" at all, it's all radiation and black holes, super novas and likely terrible things we haven't imagined yet.

The Earth itself... this little blip if a pebble floating in the near emptiness of eternity, has been through catastrophes that nearly wiped every squiggly. writhing thing off the surface of the planet... between titanic earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanic explosions that darkened the skies for years and covered continents, and asteroids that turned whole hemispheres into seas of molten rock... it doesn't exactly seem designed just for little ol' us.

People of the past were used to death, disease and disaster... they had a harder idea about reality and the grim gods presiding. The zeitgeist for some eras was more of a struggle.

But that's just one view... maybe it is all roses and sunbeams and the universe isn't out to erase us. Maybe...

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: HD3DSURROUNDSOUND

The universe. End of discussion. Humans can't survive in 99.999999999% of the universe. It is a FAR cry to reason that the universe was made for us.

Not to mention, evolution doesn't stop. Humans will evolve into further species given the opportunity (basically if we don't destroy ourselves first).

Your argument is just a rehash of the standard religious idea that humans are special in a universe that says overwhelmingly that we aren't special. It is just an egotistical look at our species.

Clearly nothing special about being part of the 0.000000001%

originally posted by: bobs_uruncle

originally posted by: Abednego
a reply to: bobs_uruncle


www.abovetopsecret.com...

Feel free to make any comment.

I read your thread. The difference for me is I see this virtual reality as technology. We are operating within that technology created by a sufficiently advanced species and that their technology is so advanced and alien to us, it seems like magic. Unfortunately, I can't prove this until I am dead and I have no way of letting the rest of you inmates know, unless of course it's in the programming/movie LOL.

I really can't see this as being the projection of a single mind, unless there is seriously advanced technology attached.

Cheers - Dave

If we operate within a virtual machine as soon as we die, that's it, all ended there. No way to prove anything until we can get out (turn us into some kind of Neo). Even so, we really won't know if we are out or is just simply another "reality" to keep us busy.

On the other hand if we are a projection of a mind as soon as we "die" we become part of what is creating that thought.

originally posted by: Abednego

originally posted by: bobs_uruncle

originally posted by: Abednego
a reply to: bobs_uruncle


www.abovetopsecret.com...

Feel free to make any comment.

I read your thread. The difference for me is I see this virtual reality as technology. We are operating within that technology created by a sufficiently advanced species and that their technology is so advanced and alien to us, it seems like magic. Unfortunately, I can't prove this until I am dead and I have no way of letting the rest of you inmates know, unless of course it's in the programming/movie LOL.

I really can't see this as being the projection of a single mind, unless there is seriously advanced technology attached.

Cheers - Dave

If we operate within a virtual machine as soon as we die, that's it, all ended there. No way to prove anything until we can get out (turn us into some kind of Neo). Even so, we really won't know if we are out or is just simply another "reality" to keep us busy.

On the other hand if we are a projection of a mind as soon as we "die" we become part of what is creating that thought.

If you are simply tethered to the "machine" your mind is still your mind, dying would be like waking from a dream. However, if your part of something's mind creating all of this, dying would be like going to sleep (I would think anyway) because then you would be just a memory.

Cheers - Dave