Scientific Evidence That The Universe Was Fine Tuned !

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

It's called 'Self-Organization'.

The problem with that train of thought is that you happen to exist in a universe. That universe you exist in is one of infinite possible universes- you just happen to be in one of them that favors life. It wasn't tuned that way. You are lucky because you are the product of a universe that had all the prefect values. For those who didn't make it into this universe, it probably seems crazy- and there are probably unfathomable numbers of lifeforms that existed in a universe that didn't make it this far. Its crazy, but you just happen to be one of those who got into the perfect universe. I'm guessing that you don't know anyone who didn't fall into this universe...thats kind of inherent to existing here.

What are the chances? Well, the chances are 100% since you are here. And if you were in another universe, you'd be looking at the constants and wondering why they weren't perfect and why you have it so bad. But when you are lucky enough to exist in this universe and have no knowledge of no other universe, obviously you question how it could be so perfect. Its not perfect...there are infinite failures. You are 1 life form among infinite numbers and you have no knowledge of that so you think you were select in some way by magic hands. Truth is, you were just the product of this universe, the others were not.

Its not magic, its just statistics that you can't comprehend when you are a product of them. Just be thankful that you won the lottery.

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

"Imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in, an interesting hole I find myself in, fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!'" - Douglas Adams

99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999% of this universe is instantly deadly to all life that we know.

How the hell is that "fine-tuned"?!

a reply to: Blue_Jay33
While a cool video. I would not say its fine tuned. More like "um, ah good enough, it works, sometimes, maybe, once in a while, ok not really, basically it trudges along in mysterious ways" So technically it works...For now.

Kind of like if god or the great cosmic turtle, or providence, or whatever else tickles your fancy created all this and about half way through creation said god goes "oh whats that over there?" And then comes back in a few billion years and forgets what he was doing to begin with, so decides to restart all over again, but it would take to much effort, so he gives up and goes and has some orange juice and forgets all about it. Yup! That kind of fine tuning.

The motto and model of the universe could just be...S*it Happens.

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

If the universe is "fine tuned", then why isn't every star system designed the same way? One of the big hallmarks of design is consistency in design and structure, and the universe is anything but consistent. If designed, it is incredibly inefficient, and wastes much material. From a designer, I'd expect numerous systems identical to our own solar system, spread out evenly throughout the universe. Why fine tune this tiny little speck in the middle of nowhere? Why even create a million extra stars. Why create a hundred billion galaxies? If you attributing the entire universe to a creator, it is impossible to argue that it is fine tuned. The universe, as a whole, is not fine tuned.

a reply to: Barcs

We are not the only life in the universe, probably not even in our own solar system. We are finding new "goldilocks" planets every few months it seems, heck we just found a planet that is more similar to Earth than any planet ever discovered before. We are most definitely not alone, we might even be in infinite company. If life is the norm in the universe then I'd call that pretty consistent, and I have a feeling we are not the exception to the rule.

Many here think they have won lotto a million times in a row by chance. They will go down fighting to keep their belief system alive. God bless them

a reply to: glend

And they never even purchased those tickets and they found them randomly too.

Odds are a Zillion to 1, and people are taking that bet, and the wager is their very life.

Now that is a crazy bet.

That's why people who are 50/50 on this topic and agnostics; well at least they attempt to hedge that bet.

originally posted by: glend
Many here think they have won lotto a million times in a row by chance.

Ludic fallacy – the belief that the outcomes of non-regulated random occurrences can be encapsulated by a statistic; a failure to take into account unknown unknowns in determining the probability of events taking place.

They will go down fighting to keep their belief system alive.

Gotta go with what you know.

God bless them

If he really wanted to bless us, assuming he even exists, he could just show up and say hi.

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
a reply to: AdmireTheDistance
A question is when they were evolving from asexual into sexual over millions of years, how were they producing ?
Or did they swing both ways ?
Maybe they were bi-sexual asexuals ?

Genders didn't need to have perfect timing.

All sexually reproducing organisms have a common single celled ancestor. All of them. This is a testable prediction of evolution and so far it is true. 'Gender' is likely evolved from other processes involving the binding of cells. We know of species that may have 'lost' this feature. What would be evidence of this being intelligent design would be a species spontaneously coming into existence that did not share an ancestor.

I actually didn't think it was a terrible video. It addressed several major arguments. Most of them have heavily trodden counters though, which are in this thread. Lawrence Krauss (who is normally philosophically clumsy) addresses it quite well actually in some of the video debates the person has been in. Might be worth a look for you?

a reply to: ReturnofTheSonOfNothing

"Imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in, an interesting hole I find myself in, fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!'" - Douglas Adams

OMG !

I laughed until I cried with that quote !

That statement just summed up the entire argument beautifully.

a reply to: CranialSponge

Thanks for that you have now set me laughing my head off.

originally posted by: GetHyped
a reply to: Blue_Jay33

Not this nonsense again. Debunked here:

www.petersaysstuff.com...
www.outerplaces.com...
rationalwiki.org...

What you have presented here are explanations for why the universe is fine tuned, they do not debunk the notion that the universe is fine tuned. Physicists generally accept the fact that the universe is fine tune, what they don't agree upon is what causes it to be fine tuned.

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

Fine tuned for what, exactly? Life? If the universe was not capable of supporting life then we wouldn't be around to question it. Most of the universe is deadly to the life we are sure exists.

Your argument is like saying a puddle's hole is "fine tuned" for the puddle. No, not really. If the hole was a different shape we'd have a different puddle, or no puddle at all.

And yes, my links very much debunk this fallacious notion in the OP that the universe "had help" fine tuning it for life. This is an old argument put forth by the dogmatic to rationalize the universe's utter indifference to us with their religious fuzzy feeling of being special.

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

The problem with fine tuning arguments is that they look at the finish product and look back in a straight line. When instead you need to look from the beginning and how it all branched out from there. The universe tends to have certain rules and processes that guide its development. These processes and rules appear to be consistent as well, even as they are applied to newer and newer things. Examples: Nothing lasts forever. Newer generations use the older generation to improve upon itself slightly. Complexity rises with each generation. Objects appear to follow a pattern of a quick adolescence followed by a brief period at its peak before slowly aging over a long period of time before dying.

Naturally, it could be argued that a god works through those processes to get to the point we are at currently. Yet that seems unlikely. These processes rarely ever utilize the most efficient remedy to improve upon itself. The fact that things look complex throughout the universe is because with newer generations, different things could be implemented in different areas.

By the way, it may seem like I am describing evolution with the above two paragraphs, but if you notice I am using vague wording. The vagueness is on purpose. It isn't just evolution that appears to follow this process of improving complexity over time. Stars, elements, and planetary bodies have all followed these same processes. Even ideas within human thoughts show such patterns. Music is a perfect example of human ideas showing patterns of evolution. Even technology behaves according to these patterns. If humans were to be able to create AI, I'm sure IT would improve upon those same rules and patterns.

I initially thought that this was a case of thread necromancy from 2006 or something like that.

Imagine my shock when I realised someone was attempting to present this argument in 2015...

a reply to: GetHyped
Well said, but I think you're wasting your breath....Some people absolutely refuse to even look at anything that goes against their beliefs. Others have no grasp of science or mathematics. When you put the two together, well....

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
Odds are a Zillion to 1, and people are taking that bet,...

Statistics isn't one of your strong suits, is it? We live in what may well be an infinite universe, which itself may be within an infinite multiverse. So yes, the odds may well be "a zillion to one", but regardless of what the odds are, you're in that one in a zillion universe.

and the wager is their very life.

Is this supposed to be some sort of hokey religious rhetoric, or a threat? Not that it matters...Jesus ain't coming back any time soon, and I'm more than capable of defending myself....

originally posted by: CranialSponge
a reply to: ReturnofTheSonOfNothing

"Imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in, an interesting hole I find myself in, fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!'" - Douglas Adams

OMG !

I laughed until I cried with that quote !

That statement just summed up the entire argument beautifully.

Don't thank me - thank (the sadly now deceased) genius Douglas Adams who was an amazing communicator. Neil Gaman once said that once you had viewed things through Douglas' eyes you could never ever see them the same way since. Truly a great loss to humanity that he died at the tragically young age of 49. I never knew him personally, yet I miss him greatly..