Who wants to argue creation?

a reply to: Cogito, Ergo Sum

Not very convincing.

I know.
At least not for you Cog. And you give me far to much credit
if you assume even, that I might be trying. I understand the
analogy is considered hokey, so to speak. I posted it any way.

And you're correct I have no beef with science at all.
It's us I have a big problem with.

If you want to believe, believe away.

I do. See I could never choose to rule out all that was a part
of this world long before i was a part of it. all the human beings alive
on this planet today are completely novice to what has been going on
here for thousands of years. To just happen on the scene very late.
And decide all ancient texts and scriptures that record in it's own way history, as
it was seen by a source. To just declare it is all BS because time has left no evidence?
Just seems arrogant and very rude if you ask me.

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: Cogito, Ergo Sum

Not very convincing.

I know.
At least not for you Cog. And you give me far to much credit
if you assume even, that I might be trying. I understand the
analogy is considered hokey, so to speak. I posted it any way.

And you're correct I have no beef with science at all.
It's us I have a big problem with.

You realize there are some very good scientists who are both Christian and creationists (as in, they have that personal belief)? They are good scientists because they don't let their personal beliefs, or what is written in scripture, bias their work at all. They just have the personal belief that ultimately, whatever they find, they are further understanding god's work. Their belief is personal, unlike the science which has it's own requirements. Seems fair enough. That I or anyone else doesn't necessarily believe it doesn't matter much. As long as it doesn't bias their work, people can have very good personal reasons for believing as they do.

The fact is, no one really knows how we got here (the universe) in any way they have been able to support or demonstrate. Nothing very convincing as yet (scientific or otherwise). I see science as being very honest in this regard, they don't claim to know. They might never really know. They are trying to though.

originally posted by: randyvs

If you want to believe, believe away.

I do. See I could never choose to rule out all that was a part
of this world long before i was a part of it. all the human beings alive
on this planet today are completely novice to what has been going on
here for thousands of years. To just happen on the scene very late.
And decide all ancient texts and scriptures that record in it's own way history, as
it was seen by a source. To just declare it is all BS because time has left no evidence?
Just seems arrogant and very rude if you ask me.

A lack of evidence (historical, archeological, scientific etc.) isn't the only problem regarding religious claims. That much of it conflicts directly with our understanding of the way physical reality works is more of a problem, ie. we not only find no evidence for the claims of scripture (or the existence of God), we also have massive amounts of evidence to the contrary for many of them.

There has never been anything, anywhere that we know of that might lend any credence to these outlandish claims. So we can go (honestly) with what we have been able to repeatedly verify and base our understanding on this. Or we can throw the lot of it out and go with ancient folklore that conflicts with what we have been able to understand up to this point. Not much of a choice really.

Though "ultimately", no one knows. So belief or otherwise in "God" will remain a personal proposition until that changes.

Science will tell you
It is only by Coincidence that Sun is fourhhundred times larger than
the moon and forhundred times farther from the Earth.

What science tells you that? One would think that before you post something like this, you would at least provide some numbers and facts, or at least check them... just for your info, you are very off.

Rest of topic just looses fast after this initial mistake...

the system of created things, universe

crea·ture
(krē′chər)
n.
1.
a. A living being, especially an animal: land creatures; microscopic creatures in a drop of water.
b. A human.
c. An imaginary or fantastical being: mythological creatures; a creature from outer space.
2. One dependent on or subservient to another.
3. Something created.

Just pack every creature that doesn't get along with others onto one little rock and sit back and watch the fun,I tend to agree with southpark we are some sort of alien reality tv show.

a reply to: SuperFrog

One would think that before you post something like this, you would at least provide some numbers and facts, or at least chec

There is a number, even in what you quoted me on Einstein.
Fourhundred is a number, at least it was when went to school.

just for your info, you are very off.

I know and you need not post any numbers or facts because what
you say is golden on ATS.

Rest of topic just looses fast after this initial mistake...

I at least hope you're embarrassed by you're reply.

Neither religion nor science can explain reality, that is my point and always has been my point, wtf does mankind fight and argue over arcane and radical idealisms is beyond me perception...

Science measures it with no explanation, and religion rationalizes it, YET both sides have no real answers to it...


Ironically many people need a purpose and chose a side to fight over...

I think mankind is special, yes, I also think evolution has something to do with that, but here is the thing, I cannot prove it, neither can science really.. They can just measure it...

I think the truths may lie on the atomic level...

Perhaps, considering we are made up of billions of cellular components, that strive to survive, and respond to stimuli...

Until we can as a species get out heads outta our buts and outta arcane and egotistical idealism, we will never ever get close to the truth.. If I knew the truth, do you think I would want to share it with mankind?

HELL NO...

a reply to: Bicent76

The scientific method is without a shadow of a doubt the best tool we have for understanding the reality around us, and to compare it with superstition as if they were on the same level is laughable.

a reply to: ReturnofTheSonOfNothing

the scientific method is the logical superstition for mankind, and it is laughable, you take science that serious, in either case, science is no closer to explaining gravity, or electricity, or the damn virus for that matter...

That is what is laughable..

Nothing personal...

at the end of the day, this bullcrap you call academics makes you no better than the arcane with their superstitions...

a reply to: Bicent76

"God is an ever receding pocket of scientific ignorance" - Neil deGrasse Tyson

That's all you can do, argue from ignorance.

a reply to: ReturnofTheSonOfNothing

a quote really?

The gods are the answers scientist seek when their sacred scientific method does not give them the answer...

Sure we can use logic to help us understand compounds that surround us in our existence, sure we can develope medicine and breakthru's when it comes to manipulating these compounds within our reality..

Yet however you look at it, or even focus on our existence our life, or our reality, SCIENCE cannot and I do not think ever will tell us why it is there, how gravity works, or why it exists, or why the sun is in place and or why we need O2 to survive...

We do not have the perception, nor the sense to understand and even IF we created machines to reveal it we could not perceive it.. Physics, the holy grail of science is not factual... Their is things that exist sub atomically that defy...

Scientists cannot explain, nor try, so at the end of the day, science has no better answer to creation than the arcane, who believe in gods..

It is our demise to fight each other over belief's instead of just existing in it, and making the best of it..

Do we really think we will be closer to the answer of life manipulating DNA?

I think we really need to think about things, manipulating dna yet not understanding it, does not make us any smarter then our ancestors...

a reply to: randyvs

Many People say that the Bible is created by man, but what these People dont pay mutch attention to is......so is our education. We dont know more than we are boing though and we dont trust anything else besides what we are being thought by Our educational system.

Our educational system is a set up to groom us to serve Our present political and economical system. It is not set up for us to know anything about creation.

originally posted by: randyvs
I at least hope you're embarrassed by you're reply.

Seriously?

Firstly, where is 'Fourhundred' a number? You mean 400?

There is discussion about earth's orbit and it goes anywhere from 91 million miles to 94.5 million miles. What number did you 'pick' to compare to moon's orbit? Also when you talking about size, you mean radius, not mass, volume or area?

Just simply provide your mathematical proof that number do work and I would believe you.

But, both you and already know that they don't work, never did and you just have an illusion mixed with dreams...

Dream on...

a reply to: spy66

Our education system may be hugely flawed, but that tends to be for subjects like History where the American government has whitewashed our history to paint the mythology of American exceptionalism or the greatness of Eurocentric culture. Subjects like Science or Math are really only politicized when idiotic Creationists want to shove their non-scientific faith into science classes.

originally posted by: Bicent76
a reply to: ReturnofTheSonOfNothing
The gods are the answers scientist seek when their sacred scientific method does not give them the answer...

SCIENCE cannot and I do not think ever will tell us why it is there, how gravity works, or why it exists, or why the sun is in place and or why we need O2 to survive...

Scientists cannot explain, ..... science has no better answer....

Thank you for completely proving my point for me - you can only argue from ignorance.

At any rate you are wrong. You are so wrong, you bring a new definition to wrongess. You, sir, are wronger that Mad Jack McWrong, winner of last years Mr Wrong competition. You are wronger than big Jock Wrongin, mayor of Wrongville of the state of Wrongvillia. Your wrongness is so dense it forms it's own singularity of wrongness, sucking in wrong from all around. You literally could not be more wrong if you was president of the society for international wrongness and all round wrong-ability.

originally posted by: Bicent76
a reply to: ReturnofTheSonOfNothing

SCIENCE cannot and I do not think ever will tell us why it is there, how gravity works, or why it exists,

We know from Newton that bodies in space attract, and we know from Einstein that gravity is a byproduct of the curvature of space time. Look it up, it really isn't difficult.

or why the sun is in place

The sun is in place because of the above mentioned force of gravity. You are really just asking the same question again in a subtlety different way.

and or why we need O2 to survive...

See explanation here - physiology.knoji.com...

science has no better answer to creation than the arcane, who believe in gods..

Absolute bullocks. Science has been able to determine with relative accuracy the beginning of the expansion of the universe. Science has fully explained the diversity of life on earth. Religion on the other hand has taken a random guess based on ignorance and superstition and NOTHING ELSE. What an absolute joke.

Your post should be required reading on the subject of "Every ignorant presupposition ever made by religious gits everywhere". Truly a staggering display, and I bow to you sir for that feat alone.

originally posted by: deadlyhope
a reply to: Barcs

Yes they do. Only constants like " Gravity exists in some way " can be 100% factual - How it works, our control over it, etc, the ideas constantly change - Maybe neutrinos are faster than light therefore blowing up einsteins equations, we still don't know what most of the universe is - We call it dark matter, dark energy, etc - But don't know what we're talking about. Science is unreliable at best.

Regardless, science and the pursuit of knowledge fascinates me. Temporary working theories on how things work are very interesting, but I'll never label them as "truth"

No offense, but this is complete hogwash. Science has gotten us closer to understanding the universe than we have ever been. Making insulting statements to scientists like "Facts change all the time in science" and "science is unreliable at best" is a load of crap. Yes, information gets updated when new discoveries are made, but you are acting like theories are proven wrong all the time. The truth is they are not. It is actually quite rare that a scientific theory ends up being wrong and most of the time it upgrades our understanding of something, it doesn't just prove it completely wrong. Einstein's relativity didn't prove Newton wrong, it expanded on his ideas.

You have the wrong attitude, my friend, especially since science is the reason that you are capable of communicating with me in the first place. Science works and leads us to better understandings of pretty much everything. It's not absolute, but that's not a bad thing because we are trying to figure out how the universe works.

How about this. You make a list of things that science has been wrong about, and I'll make a list of science that is proven accurate and correct and I'd bet my list is 10 times longer at least.

originally posted by: Bicent76
a reply to: ReturnofTheSonOfNothing

the scientific method is the logical superstition for mankind, and it is laughable, you take science that serious, in either case, science is no closer to explaining gravity, or electricity, or the damn virus for that matter...

That is what is laughable..

Nothing personal...

at the end of the day, this bullcrap you call academics makes you no better than the arcane with their superstitions...

LMAO. People really hate science. I don't understand it. Nobody's claiming it's absolutely perfect, but calling science a logical superstition is flat out stupid, I'm sorry. Science is based on testable evidence and experiment, stop acting like it is just a guess. Science denial in 2015 with all the technology we have blows my mind. We've been to the moon and back, if that isn't enough to show science has merit, then I don't know what to tell you. I can't believe people are still this stubborn.

SCIENCE cannot and I do not think ever will tell us why it is there, how gravity works, or why it exists, or why the sun is in place and or why we need O2 to survive...

Riiiiiight. So you expect science to answer a question that might not even be a question. Looks like you have high standards. Claiming science is incomplete because it doesn't know philosophical "why" questions is dumb. Science follows the evidence. Do you really not know why we need O2 to survive? You are really saying, "Why was it designed that way?" but there's no evidence of a design, designer, OR creator with reason to answer that question.

Do we really think we will be closer to the answer of life manipulating DNA?

I think we really need to think about things, manipulating dna yet not understanding it, does not make us any smarter then our ancestors...

I think we really need to stop criticizing things we do not understand. Namely, the entire scientific field of genetics. Yeah, we don't understand anything about that, yet it's a major in college and entire dedicated field of science. Just stop the useless rant. Why would you want to look so foolish?

I really just don't understand when people get so angry that they have to rant about SCIENCE of all things. Without science you have no forum to even rant. That's the whole joke about your position.

originally posted by: deadlyhope
a reply to: Barcs

Yes they do. Only constants like " Gravity exists in some way " can be 100% factual - How it works, our control over it, etc, the ideas constantly change - Maybe neutrinos are faster than light therefore blowing up einsteins equations, we still don't know what most of the universe is - We call it dark matter, dark energy, etc - But don't know what we're talking about. Science is unreliable at best.

Could you imagine religious believers going over their own ridiculous beliefs/claims to verify if there is truth to them, in the way scientists do?

Five different teams of physicists have now independently verified that elusive subatomic particles called neutrinos do not travel faster than light

The OPERA team had timed neutrinos fired through Earth from the European particle physics laboratory, CERN, near Geneva, Switzerland, and found that they made the 730-kilometer trip to Gran Sasso 60 nanosecond faster than they would traveling at light speed. But in February, the OPERA team also discovered that a loose fiber optic cable had introduced a delay in their timing system that explained the effect. A month later, researchers working with the ICARUS particle detector, also housed in Gran Sasso, measured the speed of neutrinos fired from CERN and found that they travel at light speed, as predicted.

The story captured the public imagination, and has given people the opportunity to see the scientific method in action—an unexpected result was put up for scrutiny, thoroughly investigated and resolved in part thanks to collaboration between normally competing experiments," Bertolucci says in a CERN press release. "That's how science moves forward.

news.sciencemag.org...

On July 12, 2012 OPERA updated their paper by including the new sources of errors in their calculations. They found agreement of neutrino speed with the speed of light.

en.wikipedia.org...

arxiv.org...

originally posted by: Cogito, Ergo Sum

A lack of evidence (historical, archeological, scientific etc.) isn't the only problem regarding religious claims. That much of it conflicts directly with our understanding of the way physical reality works is more of a problem, ie. we not only find no evidence for the claims of scripture (or the existence of God), we also have massive amounts of evidence to the contrary for many of them.

While I except you have a view to express, and valid concerns to consider, I would tend to suggest that it isn't the "Bible" as a religious text itself, that is the problem.

It is the Theologies, Doctrines, and Dogma the MAN associates, and in some cases CLAIM, are in the Bible.

There are some cases that pop into my mind

The earth is some 6000 Years Old!

That is an outright missing leading presumption that MAN originated with NO BIBLICAL SUPPORT.

The only thing the Bible suggests is some 6000 years old is the Bloodline of Adam, through to David, and onto Christ.

This isn't the only mistaken consideration.

Adam and Eve where the First People, and everyone comes from those two!

Sorry, but again, the Bible doesn't even suggest this is accurate. The Races created on the 6th day, that survive to this day, had been here thousands of years prior to Adam and Eve.

Adam, and later Eve are the creation of the Farming Peoples. Tenders of crops, and animal husbandry, growing there food to sustain life, apposed to the Races, who Hunted and Gathered to sustain life, and where instruction to act in good stewardship of those fruits and berries and birds of the air and fish of the waters and creatures of the earth, that where good to eat.

This IS in the Bible. The Theologies, Doctrines and Dogma associated to religious groups are incorrectly misleading suggesting otherwise.

We're not even close to be even out of the first 3 chapters of 1 book of the Bible and two stunning points that "MAN" claims is in the Bible, are not. They are the fanciful delusions of those with alternative plans and schemes who would suggest otherwise.

And as another point of view, we could switch the revelation aspect of the Bible and seek out the whether Science itself is truth. Some conclude, Science itself is flawed due to MAN.

The Theory of Evolution for an example.

My Bible tells me this Earth is old. My Bible tells me GOD Created it all, The Ancient Texts, offer a better view of Genesis 1:2, which does clearly indicate something took place that cause massive destruction and life on earth was abruptly.

Well, Science supports this, and fortunately, there is great detail that science has exposed to support this.

My Bible does present an interesting view on the subject of MAN, as the Races. It leads us to believe, MAN, of some abillity had once been on this planet, but not as we are "today". There was limited level of intelligence reached when devastation occurred, but rather than making MAN in the image He once was, GOD and the Sons of GOD, made man in there image.

Some in other sections of this site would suggest this in terms of Ancient Aliens and Genetic Manipulations and so on. I would tend to agree, since GOD and the Sons of GOD are not inhabitants of this earth. They are from the heavens, and as seen in Genesis 6, when they chose to come to earth, and "take" the daughters of MAN, it was something forbidden.

If something is "Not of this Earth, IT IS Alien"

I call GOD, GOD. I call the Sons of GOD, Sons of GOD. Others have there own names for them. In Here (ATS) some names maybe Greys, or the Tall Ones, or Reptilians etc. In Here (ATS) some names maybe Zeus, Apollo, Hades, Thor, Odin, etc.

There is one common denominator. They are all ALIEN to this earth, and the Father of it all Created it all.

Science still fails to accept this, and hinges its Theory of Evolution, on what they have studied and found. The Fossil Record.
They seek, and seek, and seek the MISSING LINK, when it sits infront of their collective face. The Planet reeks of EVIDENCE something or someone had assisted MAN into his current condition.

And as I expect, the Bible is very clear this occurred. Thankfully religious groups don't truely getting into specifics, since that would require study, which provides understanding, and, as in the case of say, Christians, we don't need to know anyways, because we are going to Heaven. It's a messy subject, so "Don't Go There". lol

This is the Missing Link screaming out at us, "Dumbasses, Stuff Happened. Wakeup and Do Not be Ignorant as the Heathen about things.

I could go one and on. It's not difficult. Lately Science is seeming to do one thing exceeding well. And as sad as you may feel about it, they (Science) is providing the supportive evidence of many of the details provided with in the Bible.

I trust you understand my comments and hope to chat about things with you soon.

Yours truly

Shane Glenn