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Who wants to argue creation?

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posted on Jun, 24 2015 @ 12:28 PM
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a reply to: Agartha

Cool baby!




posted on Jun, 24 2015 @ 12:49 PM
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originally posted by: spy66
Well because God existed before Our universe was formed some 17 billion years ago. No being existed before that in Our physical state. God did form the fimrament so that we can exist. Right?


I asked how you knew that god was not a "being" and could not "be". You don't know anything at all about what existed prior to our known current universe and have no idea if/when/where/how god exists. If god is not a being, then god does not exist. It's that simple based on the definition of being. You are relying on pure conjecture here.


be·ing
ˈbēiNG/

1.
present participle of be.

noun
noun: being; plural noun: beings

1.
existence.
"the railroad brought many towns into being"
synonyms: existence, living, life, reality, actuality
"she is warmed by his very being"
living; being alive.
"holism promotes a unified way of being"
2.
the nature or essence of a person.
"sometimes one aspect of our being has been developed at the expense of the others"


I'm pretty sure this was already posted.



Yes, that was exactly what I was saying. Just like you said above with perfection, folks don't know ANYTHING about god either, they rely on 3rd party information and take it as truth, or incorporate their own spin on it with no evidence. I do not believe in the concept of perfection, except with mathematics, although mistakes can be made. I was referring to claims people have made about god.



True People think that God is like what they have been told and thought by a 3rd party. They have probably never tried to make a thought about who or what God is on their own.


Whereas false people think for themselves? I don't get your point here. How does blindly believing a 3rd party make somebody a true person?

[quote[Mathematic are only as Perfect as the measurement and instuments of observation. And it is not Perfect, therefor our Math is not Perfect. We mostly make Things work through failure even through Math.

False. 1 + 1 ALWAYS equals 2. Even if humans make errors in math or faulty instruments, that basic fact will never change. I was referring to math itself, not human instruments that measure forces and other things like human error in calculation. That is an error made by a human, not the math itself. There's a difference.



Well science do have objective evidence. Its not my foult that People dont understand how to see the Clues within science.

I didn't say anything was your fault. I asked for the objective evidence. What "clues" are you talking about? Please link me to an unbiased source that outlines this scientific evidence for god.


I have argued this probably a 1000 times on ATS. People on ATS who like to argue this topic are like a wall of ignorance. No matter how one expalines it.....it dosent sink in. But the truth is..... their goal is not to grasp it... but to defend their own case. So its a dead end....and the reason why we never get anywhere With subjects like this and have to create New once all the time.


From what I've seen here it is the theists that constantly post ignorance and misunderstandings of science. Your beliefs are 100% subjective, whether you admit that or not. If you believe that it is not subjective, then show me the evidence instead of things that prove absolutely nothing like the OP claiming that an eclipse MUST BE from god because the moon looks to be relatively the same size as the sun in the sky. That isn't science, that is seeing a coincidence and believing it was put there while ignore countless other things in the universe that go against that. Can you please post the evidence for me. Thanks.



Yes i know what Our universe is. It is the expanding singularity. Everything that exists within the bounderies of Our expanding sinularity is Our unverse. What ever void Our singularity is expandnig within is not a part of the singularity any more. The singularity have become a different Dimension compared to the one surrounding the singularity. The singularity is a finite Dimension.


I'm sorry but this doesn't even make sense. The singularity is no longer a singularity, as it is split up into trillions of stars and planets. Singularity indicates a single condensed point of energy. How do you know there is a void to expand into? How do you know that space is not just stretching to fit the energy and matter? You make a bunch of statements, but none of that is actual fact, it sounds like it is your philosophy. Nothing wrong with that at all, it's just not fact, it is your guess on the matter.




Wrong. Science does not state that matter was formed after the BB. Nor does it say black holes formed our universe. You are just taking 2 guesses and pitting them against each other. Nothing you are saying is actually proven true. People think god formed our universe. People are generally wrong about things they haven't studied. Just saying.



I gues you fallow Your own Scientific Preachers and others stick to theirs. I dont know.... It really dosent matter.


I don't follow scientific preachers lol. I read scientific research papers and analyze the conclusions and results of experiments. Science is verifiable via experiment and is repeatable. Neither of us know the true answer as to god and the origin of the universe. I was just correcting your misunderstandings of science and what is considered scientific fact. When you say "science says" and then say something that is not scientific, I'm going to let you know about it, because the purpose of ATS is to deny ignorance. There's nothing wrong with personal viewpoints, but you are speaking as if your beliefs are fact or are verified or that god has objective evidence in support of his existence.



Mmm. Our unnatural society is a part of creation. We created it.


Ah, so you are just playing games. Wish I knew this before I responded to you. This thread is clearly about the creation of the universe, not human creations. Nice try, though.
edit on 24-6-2015 by Barcs because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 24 2015 @ 12:53 PM
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a reply to: awareness10

Got about half way through this but really struggled and wasn't very impressed. The claim that "thousands of years ago this 3 dimensional existence began" is not really starting his presentation on the right foot lol. He should stay away from physics (and philosophy). Though, if you are looking for discussion, as suggested it might be better to start a thread (so that you don't end up hijacking Randy's) with more of your own explanation and written content re "creation"/ the nature of existence?


edit on 24-6-2015 by Cogito, Ergo Sum because: for the heck of it



posted on Jun, 24 2015 @ 01:03 PM
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a reply to: randyvs

How is it that we do not belong here? I've never understood this argument, it isn't even remotely grounded in reality. Humans survived just fine in the wilderness for 200,000+ years and the fact that we survived multiple glacial periods shows we do indeed belong here. We became intelligent enough to create a technological society and today that is our environment. Human ingenuity isn't evidence that we aren't from earth. That is like saying that a hornet's nest is proof that hornets aren't from earth because they need that nest for protection of their larva and queen. Humans have adapted to the earth and are now smart enough to manipulate our own environment and make technology to make our lives more convenient, but even with all of this considered, a natural disaster could happen at any given time and still wipe us off the planet. We are still the best adapted species on planet earth.

And yeah, I know my posts can come off as harsh sometimes, but I'm all about denying ignorance and I feel it's a good thing to do that.
edit on 24-6-2015 by Barcs because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 24 2015 @ 01:03 PM
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a reply to: Barcs

I love it when some one tries to tell me what i know: LoL


I know what God is. And i know that you dont. How is that for a fact


I can explain it, but you would never Accept it. I have been through this a 1000 times on ATS.

This topic is way abowe Your head. You will never get it becaue science have not made the claim yet and you will use it as a argument against mine. This will prove that you have no mide of Your own to make a logical thought.


edit on 27.06.08 by spy66 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 24 2015 @ 01:15 PM
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a reply to: spy66

LMAO. So your only response is an insult? Before telling somebody that something is way above their head, you should at the very least check your spelling and grammar first, because if anything it shows that it is way above YOUR head. I don't deal in hypotheticals. I deal with verifiable facts, which is why I have asked you for them. I'm not sure why you refused. I have also argued with creationists on here and debunked them thousands of times as well. Regardless, where is your evidence? If it holds merit, I'll accept it. If it's dependent on assumptions like 99% of creationist arguments, then I will not accept it.

You claim to have knowledge that the rest of us do not but refuse to back up your claims. It is the ultimate laziness and that is completely on you. I can arbitrarily state anything unknown as a fact. It doesn't make it right. If you actually show me objective evidence that supports god I will happily believe in him. The truth is neither you, nor anybody else can provide that at this point in time, only conjecture and assumptions. I am ALWAYS willing to upgrade my understanding of something if the evidence shows I am wrong. Are you? I honestly do not think you would. Maybe you can provide what I have asked and demonstrate that it is beyond conjecture. If I'm wrong I'll admit it, but I've literally heard thousands of claims about god and being able to prove/show evidence that he exists but not a single one has panned out.

You don't KNOW god exists. You have FAITH that he does. There is a huge difference. There's nothing wrong with having faith but you are stating it as if it is fact. If it's just your faith I have no problem with that. Faith can be a good thing, but it's not fact.... Or is it? Maybe I've been wrong all these years and objective evidence for god exists. Please provide this for me so I can correct the error of my ways.
edit on 24-6-2015 by Barcs because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 24 2015 @ 01:29 PM
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originally posted by: Barcs
a reply to: spy66

LMAO. So your only response is an insult? Before telling somebody that something is way above their head, you should at the very least check your spelling and grammar first.

You claim to have knowledge that the rest of us do not but refuse to back up your claims. It is the ultimate laziness and that is completely on you. I can arbitrarily state anything unknown as a fact. It doesn't make it right. If you actually show me objective evidence that supports god I will happily believe in him. The truth is neither you, nor anybody else can provide that at this point in time, only conjecture and assumptions. I am ALWAYS willing to upgrade my understanding of something if the evidence shows I am wrong. Are you? I honestly do not think you would. Maybe you can provide what I have asked and demonstrate that it is beyond conjecture. If I'm wrong I'll admit it, but I've literally heard thousands of claims about god and being able to prove/show evidence that he exists but not a single one has panned out.

You don't KNOW god exists. You have FAITH that he does. There is a huge difference. There's nothing wrong with having faith but you are stating it as if it is fact. If it's just your faith I have no problem with that. Faith can be a good thing, but it's not fact.


I cant back up my claim because Your knowledge of science is terrible.... science is lacking behind. And so are you. Because you dont know more than what you can link to scientifically. You have to have some kind of scientifick link or you have nothing to go on, because you have no mind of Your own to use.


I can try, but to no use. I bet????


Lets talk creation:


Before there is anything finite....... there is nothing finite....only a single infinite void of energy..........God.

I bet i have already lost you here right???? Science dont cover this at all.......

No Time cant exist unless there first is a absolute constant time. A absolute constant time must be infinite.... Do you agree??

mmm probably not.



posted on Jun, 24 2015 @ 01:30 PM
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originally posted by: spy66

I cant back up my claim



We know.


Science dont cover this at all.......


Because it's a load of unsubstantiated claptrap.
edit on 24-6-2015 by GetHyped because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 24 2015 @ 01:53 PM
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a reply to: Barcs


LMAO. So your only response is an insult?


It's not an insult Barcs, Spy is right. It's way over your head.
Can't you tell by the dishonest lil twist you resort to more and
more redundantly. It's really getting very old besides being as
transparent as the sliding door you walked into.

SPY


Before there is anything finite....... there is nothing finite....only a single infinite void of energy..........God.


The Light of Eternal Mind.

Funny how few have used it for a starting point, when it is THE starting point.
edit on Rpm62415v02201500000053 by randyvs because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 24 2015 @ 01:55 PM
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originally posted by: spy66


Before there is anything finite....... there is nothing finite....only a single infinite void of energy..........God.



So basically God is infinite nothingness???
A void of energy is something completely empty.....



posted on Jun, 24 2015 @ 02:09 PM
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a reply to: Agartha

Both infinite nothingness and eternal everything.

The Alpha and the Omega, The Beginning and The End, The Light of Eternal Mind.



posted on Jun, 24 2015 @ 02:11 PM
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originally posted by: spy66
I cant back up my claim because Your knowledge of science is terrible....

How so? Please name one thing in science that I have been wrong about in recent history. Another unsubstantiated insult. Science is one of my hobbies. I try not to act arrogant, but I like to think my knowledge of science is better than average, since I've studied it for so long. Maybe I'm wrong, though. Perhaps folks like you that haven't studied science a moment in their lives actually know more than me about it. I doubt it though. By all means, school me then and expose my terrible knowledge of science.


science is lacking behind. And so are you.

Lacking behind what? It sounds to me like you are just another science denier that doesn't even know the basics of how it works.


Because you dont know more than what you can link to scientifically. You have to have some kind of scientifick link or you have nothing to go on, because you have no mind of Your own to use.


Of course I don't know what science doesn't yet know. I never claimed to know more than science. Science is a reliable method to test and prove things. Again, you made the direct claim that there is objective scientific evidence for god. Where is it? Stop beating around the bush and give me the evidence instead of assuming that I have no personal beliefs about anything. I have personal beliefs, I just don't claim they are facts like you and Randy.


Before there is anything finite....... there is nothing finite....only a single infinite void of energy..........God.

I bet i have already lost you here right???? Science dont cover this at all.......


You have not lost me. You have made another assumption and I do not agree with it. Can you prove that statement? Science doesn't cover that because there is ZERO objective evidence of that. It is faith based. Science goes by what you CAN prove, not by what you believe to be true. There's this thing called scrutiny and critical thinking. It means leaving your pre-assumed notions behind and thinking outside of your comfort zone. Can you do this?


No Time cant exist unless there first is a absolute constant time. A absolute constant time must be infinite.... Do you agree??


You made another assumption, not a verifiable fact. I'm not asking for the world here, just give me the objective evidence that you claimed exists in support of god. You have offered nothing but unsubstantiated claims. Like I said, anybody can guess about the answer, but a truly honest person will admit that we do not know whether god exists or what caused the big bang. You claim to have knowledge beyond science but again do nothing to suggest your viewpoint is true.

edit on 24-6-2015 by Barcs because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 24 2015 @ 02:18 PM
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originally posted by: randyvs
It's not an insult Barcs, Spy is right. It's way over your head.
Can't you tell by the dishonest lil twist you resort to more and
more redundantly. It's really getting very old besides being as
transparent as the sliding door you walked into.


What it is, is unsubstantiated guesswork. It's not over my head in the least. I just don't blindly believe in something with no evidence. That doesn't mean I don't understand it. I do. I just don't agree with it and do not agree with your logic. I've said this many times. Maybe you guys outta get together and figure out how to back up claims and provide evidence for things you claim to be true and actually critically think about them.

It's easy to just bury your head in the sand and claim anybody who disagrees with you doesn't understand or can't comprehend, especially when you are the one making the claims that cannot be validated. There is no dishonesty coming from my side. I have admitted numerous times that I do not know the answer as to whether god exists. That is as honest as it gets. You guys sit back and spew all kind of rhetoric and claims and call it the Truth, while providing no evidence to suggest you are correct. That is the exact opposite of honesty to claim that your faith is fact when it's clearly not.



posted on Jun, 24 2015 @ 02:19 PM
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originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: Agartha

Both infinite nothingness and eternal everything.

The Alpha and the Omega, The Beginning and The End, The Light of Eternal Mind.


The guesswork continues.



posted on Jun, 24 2015 @ 02:35 PM
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a reply to: Barcs


What it is, is unsubstantiated guesswork. It's not over my head in the least. I just don't blindly believe in something with no evidence. That doesn't mean I don't understand it. I do. I just don't agree with it and do not agree with your logic. I've said this many times. Maybe you guys outta get together and figure out how to back up claims and provide evidence for things you claim to be true and actually critically think about them.


Do you have a mind Barcs? I know you believe you do!
But what would you do if I asked you to prove it?
So if I speak of God ( The light of eternal mind) as if I know he
exists, it's because I've taken the time to know him. Where you
my friend have undoubtedly never given him a chance. But he
persues you. And you keep discussing him because of that.

Like a splinter in your mind.

edit on Rpm62415v39201500000045 by randyvs because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 24 2015 @ 02:47 PM
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originally posted by: randyvs
Do you have a mind Barcs? I know you believe you do!
But what would you do if I asked you to prove it?

I could show you CT and EEG results. I expect you to move the goalposts next by redefining the term "mind".


So if I speak of God ( The light of eternal mind) as if I know he
exists, it's because I've taken the time to know him. Where you
my friend have undoubtedly never given him a chance.
But he
persues you. And you keep discussing him because of that.


Completely false. I was a believer for more than half of my life. I've been there and done that. I've read the bible cover to cover. You've taken the time to know what the bible says about god, not to actually know god himself. I've taken the time to understand what the bible says about god as well. The difference is that I no longer buy into it, but don't discount the possibility of god existing overall. You have not considered any other myths and legends about a creator to even be possible. There is a big difference between believing you know god and actually having a face to face conversation. People just like to throw that Truth word around like it's going out of style. The truth is nobody actually knows the truth as it relates to creation vs materialism, including folks that believe they do. I don't claim to know all the answers, that is YOU GUYS. I've said it before. Strong faith does not equal fact no matter how vigorously you may argue for it.
edit on 24-6-2015 by Barcs because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 24 2015 @ 02:48 PM
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a reply to: randyvs

By the same principle, spiderman, sauron, Harry Potter and bobba fett should all be considered real people by virtue of their massive fanbases.
edit on 24-6-2015 by TzarChasm because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 24 2015 @ 02:58 PM
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a reply to: TzarChasm

Or Hinduism.



posted on Jun, 24 2015 @ 03:11 PM
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Here we have another bunch of creationist trying to prove creation by applying science/logic. Either you admit you believe in a magician or you accept the world is based on mathematical/scientific explanations. You cannot have it both ways. The truth is that the growth of science has diminish the need to believe in a supernatural magician creator but rather than admit defeat, bible pundits is trying to evolve their nonsensical argument with science.

God : "Did it really make sense to you that I would create an entire Universe with billions of billions of planets and wait about 13,700,000,000 years just so I could focus on a few Jews from Palestine about 2,000 years ago while ignoring the rest of the 200,000,000 people on the planet at the time? Did I make those few Jews or did those few Jews make me?"



posted on Jun, 24 2015 @ 03:38 PM
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a reply to: randyvs

You Creationists are funny. You want to be taken seriously as scientific facts but your attitude is unscientific. Rather than engaging in open-minded investigation to figure out how things are done, at the first glimmer of mystery you throw up your hands and say it is beyond science. This is like not knowing how a magic trick is done and thinking no one else can know, either. We can give up trying to understand because God—who in your view is like a 2000-year-old petty Middle Eastern tyrant, quick to anger and condemn to the eternal prison of Hell those who don't obey Him—must have done it. As soon as you (to sound scientific) ascribe the phenomenon to irreducible complexity the a great Intelligent Designer, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Santa Claus or something else is the answer.
We should now abandon the search for the truth. Needless to say, Science does not stop at some artificial limit of inquiry. It continues on. .




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